"There were substantial differences between W-HAW and the other RS types. Changes in SCFA and pH were distributed more evenly through the large bowel in rats fed W- HAW. This may be of some value, because most chronic large bowel disease (including CRC) is localized in the distal colon and rectum, where SCFA supply is lowest (44). It has been suggested that a combination of RS plus nonstarch polysaccharide (NSP) is optimal in ensuring the supply of SCFA to these viscera (45). Our data support this, because HAW contained both fiber polysaccharides integrally, whereas the other diets (apart from W-LAW) required the addition of fiber." Conlon et al, 2012.
W-HAW = Western diet, high amylose wheat [no, I'm not advocating wheat]
W-LAW = Western diet, low amylose wheat
NSP = non starch polysaccharide [all other fiber except RS]
RS = resistant starch
About a year ago I talked about the importance of the entire fiber spectrum and did my first post on #RESISTANTSTARCH lol. Below are other relevant RS posts:
- Feeding the Microbiota: Non-Starch Polysaccharides (NSP), Resistant Starch (RS) and Mucous
- Sorry. Resistant Starch is Unlikely to Miraculously Cause Weight Loss and Body Fat Loss
- Why We Are Sick and Fat: Calories In (SUPERORGANISM) = Calories Out (MICROBIOTA) + Calories Out (HUMAN) + HEAT*Fluxxx
- Legumes and Potatoes are Certainly P-A-L-E-O (Because Cooked RS3 and Raw RS2 are Paleo and Ancestral)
- Cooked/Crystallized RS3 Trumps the F*KC Outta Raw RS2: They are Vastly Different for Our Guts
Cooked RS3 Helped Heal My Gut
Cooked RS3 helped heal my gut along with soil probiotics; they allowed me and my kids to tolerate dairy and gluten again. I like it and it's a fantastic tool. It's the anchor of the 7 Steps.
 |
| Source: Fermentation of non-digestible oligosaccharides by human colonic bacteria Gibson et al, 1996
Average Daily Fiber Estimates
|
Rebiosis to Heal the Gut
In healing the gut, rebiosis needs to occur -- reintroduction of lost life to a dysbiotic terrain. Nearly all health conditions being studied are now emerging with correlations to intestinal dysbiosis. And as we know by fixing dysbiosis, we can resolve many health conditions from allergies to autism spectrum to hypertension. Weeding, seeding, breeding and feeding are part of this cycle of rebiosis.
The loss of our microbial 'limbs' in the gut can likely be attributed to 5 main factors:
(1) altered births: mothers that lacked commensals, C-section birth, use of formula
(2) widespread use of antibiotics in healthcare and poultry/livestock
(3) sanitation and modern food supplanting foods that were teeming with microbes before (food, processed pickles, hands, water/soil, fecal contaminated drinking water, etc)
(4) pollution and toxins -- mercury, arsenic, xenoestrogens (do you have moobies?), etc
(5) distance and disconnection from the soil, good dirt teeming with microbes and unmolested by herbicides, pesticides, steam treatment, synthetic chemicals or petrol based fertilizers
Cooked RS3 is Ancestrally Derived
I think RS is a foundation fiber that our grandmothers forage and fired up on ancestral coals, primitive ovens and later village hearths. I think our ancestral mothers and caregivers fed all varieties of tender and tasty tubers, starchy roots, rhizomes and corms to toddlers and teens along with berries, stems, leaves, seafood and meaty bones.
RS3 and RS2 are vastly different in our guts. They feed different populations and even anatomically act differently in our gut tube.
RS3 acts like insoluble fiber, carrying fermentation way until the distal end of the intestinal tube, whereas RS2 acts like kindling, burning hot and quickly at the intestinal gateway, the caecum. Alone, raw resistant starch granules are rapidly eaten by intestinal flora and leave no residual to be fermented at your butt/rectum unless insoluble fiber and/or cooked RS3 are included at the same time in the diet.
Gut researchers Conlon, Topping and their team (above) discuss how their data supports that RS2 (high amylose maize) cannot supply butyrate or other SCFA to the distal gut without the mechanical structure of insoluble fiber, such as that found in wheat, wheat bran and insoluble wheat fibers [and again, no, I'm not advocating gluten or wheat].
I think a lot of people are benefiting from green banana flour and raw potato starch -- all fantastic sources of RS2 -- but make errors in trying to supplement a high RS2 dose or a dose that is deficient in supplying fuel and structure for the entire gut. The non-RS2 microbial eaters starve and eventually become extinct or become weak and outcompeted. They even lose their functionality in degrading different plant polysaccharides according to data about Ruminococcus bromii, the keystone degrader for both RS2 and RS3. According to Ze et al, at least 25% of healthy controls don't have R bromii or have defective R bromii that cannot use or eat resistant starch. TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT ARE F**KCED? Yes and what about the unhealthy? The obese? The pre-cancerous? The cancer survivors? The ones who took 6 months of antibiotics for acne or Lyme disease? The ones who have been following longterm Paleo? Strict AIP? Or ketotic very low carb (very low fiber/RS) diets? Or on one or couple courses of antibiotics for sinus infections, colds, fevers or urinary tract infections? The ones on acid blockers like H2 receptor antagonists or the "purple pill" PPIs?
Is your R. bromii 50% f*kced? 75%? 85%?? I dunno. Probably a lot if you don't have healthy dirt, livestock exposures or soil-based organism type probiotics to replenish their inherent functionality.
Other precautions:
+ Don't take green banana flour or potato starch alone without insoluble plant fibers or cooked resistant starch (eg brown rice, beans, lentils, whole cooked tubers, carrots, 3-5 servings fibrous vegetables or fruit)
+ Don't take green banana flour or potato starch at high dose without the entire plant fiber spectrum for a long period of time: inulin, oligosaccharides (eg onions, leeks, chives, yacon root, Jerusalem sunchokes, asparagus, inulin supplementation, etc). You may likely skew your gut populations.
You may starve and kill these tender and immunoprotective populations:
--Bifidobacteria (many species just do not eat raw RS2; yet all eat cooked RS3, inulin, oligosaccharides, other fiber)
--Enterococcus
--Lactobacillus (none eat RS2; all eat cooked RS3)
--Good E coli
The F-Word: F*BER
Get the range of 'fiber', RS and plant/meat glycans:
- Milk Oligosaccharides - the carbohydrates found in raw cow, sheep, goat and human breast milk, dairy products and fermented soft and hard cheeses.
- Resistant Starch (RS) - the most common storage carbohydrate of plants. Found in tubers, roots, green bananas, green plantains, legumes, peas, oats, nuts, carrots, maize, sedge nutlets, and grains.
- Inulin and Oigosaccharides (OS) - (inulin, fructo-oligosaccharides, galacto-oligosaccharides, xylo-oligosaccharides) the second most common storage carbohydrate of plants including chicory root and its greens (aka endive), onion, leek, yacon root, Jerusalem artichokes, dandelion leaves and roots, asparagus, ripe bananas/plantains, legumes, lentils, oats, whole rice, red/black/purple rice, maize, grains.
- Non-Starch Polysaccharides (NSP): (found in small and large amounts in nature)
Arabinogalactan - a storage carbohydrate of trees and many plants (carrots, radish, black gram beans, pear, maize, red wine, tomatoes, sorghum, coconut meat)
Arabinoxylan - found in whole grains, psyllium, steel cut oats
Glucomannan - found in the cell walls of certain plant roots and wood, also a component of bacterial and yeast membrane. Konjac roots contain 40% by dry weight and are a great source of glucomannan
β-Glucans - found in oats, barley, whole grains, shiitake, oyster, maitake, mushrooms, dates, yeast
Pectin - found in avocados, berries, citrus, fruits, vegetables
Gums and mucilages - found in seed extracts (guar, locust bean), tree exudates (gum acacia, algal polysaccharides (alginates, agar, carrageenan), psyllium
Man-made prebiotics derived from plants and animals:
Galacto Oligosaccharides (GOS) - derived from cow’s milk to simulate human breast milk for infant formula. Dr Bill Lagakos favorite by UK Bimuno! bimuno.com
Fructo Oligosaccharides (FOS) - separated from natural inulin, used in sweeteners.
Mannan Oligosaccharides (MOS)- made from yeast cells, approved only for animals.
Potent but powerful prebiotics:
Polyphenols and Flavonoids - found in many places in trace amounts; colorful plants, dark chocolate, seaweed, and mushrooms. Red wine (but not gin) raises Bifidobacteria.
Glycans and glycolipids - Found in raw meat, raw blood, cartilage, gelatin, collagen, chondroitin, and animal cells.
Chitin and chitosan - found in fungi, yeasts, insects, worms.
"About a year ago I talked about the importance of the entire fiber spectrum"
ReplyDeleteYes, you did.
And yet several well-known blogger advocated the exact opposite, namely taking large quantities of resistant starch alone. And they did so with much certitude just as they had with other previous fads. perhaps there is a lesson here, although I doubt many will learn.
I tried to temper it but you see, I failed? Rogues, renegades and pimps dislike tempering
ReplyDeleteClarification: You wrote, " Don't take green banana flour or potato starch alone without insoluble plant fibers or cooked resistant starch (eg brown rice, beans, lentils, whole cooked tubers, carrots, 3-5 servings fibrous vegetables"
ReplyDeleteWhen you say "cooked" resistant starch (i.e. RS3) you mean, cooked AND then cooled and eaten COOL, repeat COOL, not warm, -- is this correct?
Even warm has substantial RS3 (except rice -- Tim Steele read all of the rice charts wrong; hat tip Gemma). Brown rice has good NSP and some rice species have more RS3 but few.
ReplyDeleteWarm tubers, lentils and legumes have really good RS3 8-18 g/serving (1/2 cup cooked).
If you cycle cook, fridge, warm/room temp eat, you only lose 25 to 50% RS. In the big pict, it's not much. I suspect also that in our gut, what the buggers eat/hack and contribute to the community is different than what gut researchers have studied. Too many factors to tell what is 'resistant' and 'fuel' for the flora, you know what I mean. Lab conditions are way different than what configuration the microbial enzymes fit into breaking down fiber strands and branches. As an ecology, they crossfeed. If one starves, many will starve. If the one that starves is the 'butcher' for the village, then a whole village may starve. Eg VLC diets or strict Paleo (no legumes, tubers or whole grains).
When people go low carb 50 g or less per day, Duncan et al showed Roseburia, one of the keystone inulin degraders drops in abundance insanely and at the same time butyrate epically dropped 4-fold as well. Roseburia makes CLA which keeps us hawwt and lean. Roseburia does eat RS2 but it 'prefers' oligosaccharides and inulin and I suspect this is via evolutionary optimization.
Akkermansia eats oligos and inulin. It also keeps us lean, hawwwt and hormonally balanced. It eats the scraps of inulin degradation from Roseburia (see?). Those who eat high dose raw potato starch have very low Akkermansia, from what I've observed.
See the rugby post on Akkermansia.
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/08/exercise-step-6-to-be-lean-healthy.html
Cooked banana flour still contains about 17 grams RS3 in the baked products, per the company communication, half crystallized and retained from 35% raw (35 grams per 100 g raw stone ground flour)
http://www.bananaflour.com.au/
This answers my question nicely Dr B G, thank you! (though I had to turn the air conditioning on HIGH after reading the, um, "rugby" post... :-)
ReplyDeleteDr. BG,
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the Perfect Health Diet is potentially deficient in the kind of fiber needed for a healthy gut? I've been doing amazingly well on the diet and don't plan to deviate any time soon, but in the long run, I'm wondering if a lack of properly prepared legumes and grains can actually be negative?
Looking over your fiber list, there's almost no categories where a PHD-safe food can't be found. My guess is that as long as the PHD is as diverse in tubers, veggies, fruits, and nuts, (with the addition of SBO's and green banana flour or PS for RS source) a healthy gut can be achieved. Thoughts?
Wow! I've been eating up to about 3/4lb roasted purple potatoes - cooled, like refrigerated, awhile before this. if warm RS3 ranges from 8-18g per serving I cant imagine how overboard I was going. I bet that was why I got worse for awhile! I'll be honest RS3 dose is much more daunting than RS2. I realized I was going overboard a couple days ago and am now only consuming around 5.5 oz per day of cooled roasted potatoes in addition to sweet potatoes baked, and most often cooled, out of convenience (college schedule). I hope this is a decent amount.
ReplyDeleteDo you have any good links for RS3 food content both cooked as well as cooked and cooled?
Sincerely,
Paleo Hillary Duff
Grace, what exactly is the problem with wheat? I understand that there are a subset of people who have celiac or some sort of gluten/wheat sensitivity, but what about everyone else who has zero problems eating wheat and perhaps even feels better eating it? Reading some of Chris Masterjohn's old posts, it's clear that there were populations that thrived with wheat as a staple, despite its potential problems.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've ever seen an unbiased post on things that can be problematic with wheat and things that are beneficial in wheat, and it seems like an oversight, but perhaps I've just missed this even-handed analysis? The whole grains people just cherry-pick studies and scoop whole wheat in with the other grains, so it's difficult to interpret, while Paleo cherry-picks against any type of grain but most especially wheat. . but wheat has a long history of use and I'm not quite buying the Paleo story, not least because eating wheat in my mixed omnivorous diet has been fine for myself and many others with no gluten/wheat sensitivity. I ascribe to the Masterjohn point of view that refined wheat and sugar displaced healthier foods in human history, but in a balanced diet can be a good source of certain nutrients, and I'm not sure if I'm kidding myself, or if it has to do with different strains of wheat in the past versus now . . ? Would you ever consider writing a post on this subject?
Hi Grace, great post, love the blog!
ReplyDeleteI've been eating RS from food sources only - about a cup baked cooled potatoes and one green banana a day. I come from the low carb candida -> hormone shutdown camp. My question is, since I am primarily eating RS3, should I start introducing RS2 also?
I've had good results with RS just from food sources in helping my constipation. I have some Prescript Assist that I tested three months ago and it knocked me out in exhaustion. At what point should supplementation with RS, the other fermentable fibers, and soil based probiotics be considered?
Thanks!
Anon,
ReplyDeletewe need to not confuse wheat with wheat products. I used to do collaborative studies with a wheat products company. In medical books up till the 1980s they talked about flour and offal- all the goodness was in the "offal". Plus we used to wash out the starch granules (to make a protein product that could be added back into baking flours to lift the nitrogen levels-) and take the seriously sticky proteins and work out a strategy to dry them in a home made ring dryer to limit the amount of degradation of the spring structure in the glutens.
The real commercial work of making stuff at low cost is a different world to our sciencey world.
dr j,
ReplyDeleteYes, that's exactly the type of nuance I'm asking about. When wheat is discussed, these distinctions and caveats just aren't made. (Similar to how conventional wisdom throws red meat under the bus, without considering its nutrient density, veg consumed at the same time, cooking technique, etc.)
Outside of those with an intolerance/celiac, how does the issue stand for the rest of us? What's the unbiased science on wheat?
Btw, sorry for the thread derail! (I'm not sure if you want to go into this topic, Dr. BG, which is fine! Just thought I'd throw it out there.)
Hil Duff here,
ReplyDeleteI'd like to note that I have of course read The links on FTA which Tim posted and that I dont recall many tubes being in the 8-18 range while fresh and warm, only while cooked and cooled. So please don't go to the trouble of trying to send me that! I suppose I' only curious in that discrepancy which you mentioned
In your opinion, can one gain back their R bromii even if they are 99% screwed? Do you think FMT's have the potential to replenish the same species?
ReplyDeleteMG
Anon,
ReplyDelete*COLD SHOWER* though it's been almost 100 degrees here in California lol
Awebb
"My guess is that as long as the PHD is as diverse in tubers, veggies, fruits, and nuts, (with the addition of SBO's and green banana flour or PS for RS source) a healthy gut can be achieved. "
I think you can get as diverse as you want after you've healed insulin sensitivity, micronutrient deficiencies, toxins, and inflammation, the key for the Jaminets' goals and anti-cancer effects for the PHD.
Tubers are part of the plan and the heirloom varieties all have plenty of RS2 (raw) and RS3 (cooked). I've always enjoyed 'crispy' type of potatoes or the kind that have been chilled because they have more bite. The potatoes I have access to unfortunately aren't super fresh so I rarely eat any raw because of the solanine (which is a gut disruptor).
PHD! Welcome Mr Duff lol. U CRAcK ME UP.
RR = repeated retrogradation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=potato+retrogradation
Did you ever think of a career in food science (my former major in college)? You could shift the industry with your paleo longings and hilarious heart?
Basically the less digestible a carb is, the more resistant starch, oligosaccharides or whatever - the lower the glycemic index, the lower the RDS (rapidly digestible starch).
Look at fig 2 and 10 to compare the increase in RS with cook/cool compared to cooked only:
http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/41122.pdf
INSOMNIA?? search 'repeated' you get all the answers to your question from this RS primer 101:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1541-4337.2006.tb00076.x/asset/j.1541-4337.2006.tb00076.x.pdf?v=1&t=i061q0wn&s=9b24b81107afac7a547226e35f3cf8280291c374
You know what is FUNKY about RS3 that I've always loved?
Crystalized tubers can accept/donate electrons and serve as anodes in batteries. Amazing structures of physics and chemistry, and source of gut 'energy' transfers that go to us ultimately and our web of collective 'energy':
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22766035
Anon,
ReplyDeleteWheat is so diabolically contentious now, no?
I used to think it was evil because my youngest absolutely did better off of it (and still). My tolerance for spelt and sprouted organic wheat (Ezekiel) was fine until I got really sick (one pharmaceutical; one dental titanium implant+ antibiotic).
Now it's almost tolerable again! But i personally don't push it and try to stick with organic or parties when we rarely do wheat.
WAPF and Masterjohn are probably correct but what I see is an epic amount of gut disruption from young kids to older people. There are no accurate tests sadly either. Cyrex labs is good but not enuf, only picks up when really ill imho.
James,
ReplyDeleteSorry I couldn't find my roasted citation -- yes lowest amounts are probably less than 8 g but roasted, warm is higher about 8-10+ grams.
For chinese potatoes: roasted/cooled is 19 g per 100 g ready to eat.
http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/APJCN/19/2/274.pdf
Dr j ~thx!!
MG,
ReplyDeleteFMTs accomplish a lot. If you watch the real time gut microbiota analysis after a transplant, the ancestral species radiate and re-establish beautifully
--clostridia
--bacteroides
--bifido
--etc.
The big butyrate producers from inulin, oligo and RS fermentation return: R bromii, Roseburia, etc.
Grace,
ReplyDeleteMany of the foods that have RS make me very bloated. I find your steps to cure SIBO interesting, and I feel as though I am missing something. If I eat legumes, even properly prepared ones, I am miserable. I can sort of keep the symptoms under control if I eliminate FODMAPS, and I avoid nightshades due to minor joint pain. Unfortunately, that is a very limited diet. Do I just need to hang in there longer and eat the RS foods whether they bloat me or not, in hopes that feeding the gut bugs will eventually improve things?
Thanks,
Carol
Natalie
ReplyDeleteSo sorry to hear about the "low carb candida -> hormone shutdown camp." Hope you are recovering well!
"My question is, since I am primarily eating RS3, should I start introducing RS2 also? .... At what point should supplementation with RS, the other fermentable fibers, and soil based probiotics be considered?"
Generally if there are problems with RS, soil probiotics, starches/FODMAPS, then everything needs closer examination like via functional medicine testing if possible to determine if there are
--parasites
--high amounts of yeast, fungi
--protozoa
None of the above show up on ubiome or AmBUTT testing so I find these tests kinda stupid and ridiculously useless because antibiotics cause all the above pathogenic overgrowths and need to be vetted out.
7 steps won't be enuf, more sophisticated approaches and strategies may be necessary (but not always).
If one still deals with MetSyn/insulin resistance, body phat issues (despite 7 steps) and cancer prevnetion, I'd recommend more sophisticated testing and focusing on hormones, toxin removal and micronutrient replenishment.
Sorry for the long to-do list!
Carol,
ReplyDeleteread the above -- 7 steps are just for the basics and probably honestly less than 40-50% of (paleo) people reap benefits because the amount gut disruption has occurred on massive scales now with GMOs in the human food supply for the last 10-15 years and perhaps tied synergistically to all the flu, whooping cough and swine flu shots people love to get.
I think non paleos reap higher benefits because they have not starved the gut of inulin and RS3! Most americans do get ~5-7 g of inulin from wheat lol, the only thing it is probably good for.
For 2-3 years I had the same problem as you -- looking at water made me bloated. Hang in there. The gut can rehab but you need to find out what is broken or try different avenues and test and see. I prefer testing. Shooting in dark or blindly can waste a lotta years...
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"About a year ago I talked about the importance of the entire fiber spectrum"
Yes, you did.
And yet several well-known blogger advocated the exact opposite, namely taking large quantities of resistant starch alone. And they did so with much certitude just as they had with other previous fads. perhaps there is a lesson here, although I doubt many will learn."
SO.
As someone who has followed THE WHOLE discussion on RS since it was brought to light mainly at Free the animal blog some time in spring 2013 or so -- and promoted at Animal Pharm later on too, and also because I get mentioned in the comments here, I feel I have every right to comment on this point.
For me personally, and I believe also for many others who followed and contributed to the continuously EVOLVING discussion on the resistant starches, animal glycans, other fiber sources and all the other accompanying compounds that are in the real foods, and the unknown world of human gut microbiome, IT WAS A JOURNEY OF LEARNING.
Nobody can claim to have all the answers a year or two ago. Nobody had them. People were invited to try, experiment and share the results.
Only thanks to many personal experimentation, reading science, refining the info, correcting and learning from each other and SHARING the results we could arrive to the old truth that the real food is best, potatoes are great cooked and/or cooled or even RAW, legumes are fine, that those who are not able to tolerate a single dose of raw potato starch seem to have a problem, and should search WHY.
I can easily imagine that some people used to consuming their information from the headlines only get a bit confused. "Eat your spoonful of RS and live forever". Did anybody ever say that?
DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU EVER POST SUCH A STUPID COMMENT AGAIN, ANON!
And it should be acknowledged too that Dr. BG is is able to help people with disturbed gut flora and serious health problems, and even advise to those who have troubles to digest normal food on the best possible nutritional and healing strategy to heal their guts, using all those very advanced tests to find out what is wrong and what should be done in order to get healthier.
I've tried PS a few times in the last months and every time I get really gassy, which I guess happens to many. But in my case it's very foul smelling gas and I also get smelly, sticky stools. I did notice the same thing used to happen many years back when I would eat cooked and cooled potatoes/rice. Constipation is more likely overall unless I eat anything with FODMAPs or lactose. All of this is often accompanied by my usual suspects of brain fog, anxiety, hyperactivity, muscle twitches, allergy symptoms (nose and eyes), shortness of breath, frequent urination and fatigue.
ReplyDeleteNow I have suspected some sort of dysbiosis, lack of good bacteria or overgrowth of bad bacteria/yeast for a long time. This effect resistant starch has on me kind of points towards the same, no?
What would be the best plan of action here? Some sort of herbal antibiotic for a while and then probiotics before trying resistant starch again?
Also polyphenols and MSG (really all yeasts) leave me worse off with the same type of symptoms as above.
Gemma! Play nice!
ReplyDelete@tolo
ReplyDeleteI had symptoms somewhat similar to that when I went overboard with RS.
First I would try taking
prescript assist
AOR-3
Renew Life
Possibly jarrow's s boulardi if you suspect the ol' candida monster
If that does not allow you to take it without trouble (are you getting inulin, cellulose etc as well?) it may be worth doing some stuff with oregano oil, GSE, Berberine etc. This is what is working for me personally so take caution, we are all super snowflakes.
Grace will probably have a better answer but I hope this helps!
Isn't it true that most wheat these days is grown using glyphosate, which disrupts the gut?
ReplyDeleteAlso, of course, the ancient types of wheat are different than many modern ones in other ways
So discussions and probably most studies of "wheat" can be confusing unles these factors are taken ibto account.
Can we take PS in our morning smoothie, konjac noodles for lunch and potato salad with dinner or should things be consumed simultaneously to survive to get to the rectum?
ReplyDeleteGemma,
ReplyDeleteThx for your comments. We are all evolving, no? You are always on the fast tract for gut and health knowledge! I appreciate your views.
Tolo
If you suspect yeasts, it is probably yeasts. I used to have 4+ on the Genova testing and since last year symptoms gone, and my most recent testing none in stools (but mild amounts in urine/circulation).
Yeasts are tough if you have a ton of mercury but using functional medicine strategies and the 7 steps you can crowd them out. Never get rid of, but just encourage the best ecosystem where they are not hostile rogues and renegades, demanding and usurping the resources of the whole community.
Basically probiotics are the key. Natren brand bifido and lacto helped a ton for me. Thorne's FloraMEND was also especially powerful. As Hill Duff pointed out the SBOs and S BOULARDII has special benefits of providing potent antifungal spectrum as well.
A gentleman named Eddie has great comments at Tim's blog vegetable pharm and on the old FTA threads. He's a true expert and lived to tell!!
Elliebellie,
ReplyDeleteThx for bringing up glyphosate which is toxic to both mitochondria and our gut bugs. Our mitochondria are in fact re-tooled bacteria, so this dual toxicity makes evolutionary sense. I agree that ancient wheat cannot be compared with the current hybridized crops that are covered in herbicides and glycophosate.
For those susceptible, gluten/gliadin opens the zonulin units which are the gates for selective permeability in the gut. Gut needs to be selective but if gliadin overruns the system and guts are vulnerable, this creates the initiation of disease and malaise. Modern wheat apparently has much higher concentrations of toxic gliadin which opens up zonulin. Wheat is higher protein now and it has even hundreds-fold more toxic gliadin.
Flour is also milled to be super fine -- like potato starch and other starch granules that we eat -- these leach into our blood stream. Good or bad? If it's toxic gliadin, probably very bad!
modern flour is also bleached and full of bromides to make the flour 'flow' and not clump up. Bromides displace iodine and other vital halides in our physiology.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI have no idea but ancestrally we didn't consume RS2 in complete isolation, it was in a whole plant: whole tiger nut, whole muddy wild carrot, whole cattail tuber, etc. The studies show in isolation is where the problem with RS2 is, including green banana flour. I think if you're smoothies has some whole veggie or berries blended in, it should be fine. In the studies psyllium and whole wheat worked.
Hi Grace,
ReplyDeleteJust heard about and started on the Bimuno yesterday to help the beleaguered Bifido's. Combining that with Align and had used Securil to try and boost the tiny numbers of what was left of them previously.
Question I have is - I have chronic fatigue and I got myself a Ubiome report. Not great but gave me some ideas of where to start. Found the low bififdo's which appear to be so common to the condition. Also found no e coli which also seems to be common.
Now I've seen you talk about cfs's having no e coli in the transcript for your bulletproof radio interview and you've just mentioned good e coli in this piece.
Do you think it's worth trying Mutaflor to establish some e coli or are they not entirely necessary? Or will they establish themselves somehow if I follow the 7 steps.
Akso, thanks for the blog. Having slowly emerged from the immense confusion of the last however many years and starting to try and get better I've found your articles and those of others as well as the comment sections really helpful.
elliebellie
ReplyDeleteFrom Todd Lepine MD
http://omicsonline.org/open-access/detection-of-glyphosate-residues-in-animals-and-humans-2161-0525.1000210.pdf
HI Robert,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your kind words. I hope you find some solace and more importantly SOLUTIONS! I didn't realize we need a boatload of healthy, good, symbiotic E coli until this past year and looking at functional medicine. Yes I believe Mutaflor (if you can obtain) can be a solution.
Tracking the urine organic acids is very helpful to assess what is translocating and leaking into the blood stream. It is wonderful to have uBiome and AmGut but again they only give a partial picture, and almost misleading since 90% of the picture is still hidden (viruses, pathogens, yeasts, helminths, etc).
Dr. BG,
ReplyDeleteYes, gut damage is rampant, and there's so much we don't know still. It's difficult to figure things out.
Btw, I noticed in your 7 steps you don't mention stomach acid . . I recently found this article: http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/123/3/326?sso-checked=true
which made me think of the old altmed standby of using betaineHCl. I don't think that was ever tested in an RCT as far as I know, but anecdotally it helped people. . There was also that article about something like >50% of people with acne (sure sign of gut issues) having achlorydria. It just makes me think of all the ladies I know who present with iron deficiency symptoms (such as cold hands) despite eating red meat and other foods with non-heme iron (non-heme iron needs stomach acid to properly solubilize). And I know so many ladies who still have acne in adulthood, even though it used to be considered a pubertal problem (my dr. always told me not to worry because it's normal and will go away . . except it didn't). The article states that low stomach acid could result from celiac, autoimmune atrophic gastritis, or H. pylori. For some patients a cause couldn't be determined.
The low stomach acid could contribute to SIBO, and make people unable to tolerate probiotics and fermented foods (I think Chris Kresser mentioned he has patients like this). Anyways, I thought I'd bring it to your attention. Though I wonder how good the diagnostic tests are? My H. pylori test came back negative, but I was able to manage my acne via cranberries and lactoferrin, both of which have been confirmed to be effective against H. pylori . . so I'm not sure. Perhaps they're also effective against a different pathogen.
"DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU EVER POST SUCH A STUPID COMMENT AGAIN, ANON!"
ReplyDeleteThanks for shouting at me. But never mind, I'm used to it. Richard did much worse when I suggested taking more than Potato Starch alone (i.e., also fos, gos, etc.). This was very early on in the piece. Sure, positions have changed. But for my liking there is often too much black and white, and not enough grey.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteThe iron deficiency article was fantastic -- thank you. I talk about gut support in step #7 but I have not had time to expand on that in the blog.
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html
Acid is a basic facet of digestion and when it is missing, horrofic things happen. That article discusses many of the common pathophysiology and origins.
Kombucha has a pH of about 2-3 apparently and Hannah from Kombucha Kamp has written about how kombucha instantly heals H pylori. I think part of the mechanism as you alluded above is that the acidity lowers H pylori's need to self-protect itself in the face of insufficient acidity.
Anon,
I appreciate your thoughts because it takes boldness to present dissenting opinions. Actually Gemma uses only real food, no potato starch. I'm one of the many coming out of the woodwork which could not tolerate any raw potato starch but included it in the protocol because it is otherwise tolerated by most. The max dose I'd suggest is 1-2 Tbs daily and always with the 7 Steps which includes the whole fiber spectrum.
I've become a big fan of the oligosaccharides! In college at the nutritional science lab that I studied in, our focus were the enzymes that produce RFOs, raffinose family oligosaccharides. Recently I was looking it up again and discovered that when researchers knocked out the oligo production (because they make gas!) then the plant failed to maintain homeostasis under duress and stress. We can't f*kc with evolution lol
OS are vital to our health and immunity -- we need plant oligo and polysaccharides to thrive. It is very interesting to look at centenarian and healthy guts -- robustness and diversity of species that eat the entire spectrum of RS, OS, glycans and myriad of polysaccharides are incredible.
I loved examining the Burkino Faso kids. They eat termites as a source of protein and probiotics -- the termites guts have microbes which are 'infected' with spirochetes but these help wood degradation (not syphilis or lyme disease). These BF kids are some of the most healthiest on earth. Healthy native african children have super healthy guts and rare illnesses and like rural farm children, deeply connected to earth and its microbes.
Dr. BG,
ReplyDeleteCould excess nutrition via vitamin and mineral supplements actually contribute to dysbiosis if they are used up by overgrowths rather than properly digested for the body? For example, most multivitamins (even the super 'good' brands recommended by the best functional medicine docs) typically have much higher B vitamin complex amounts than would be found in a whole foods diet. We're talking 6 capsules/day for the DFH multivitamins, for example. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Dr. BG,
ReplyDeleteI forget to mention that I ask because I did an experiment with the DFH multi. I have suffered from IBS-D and have had the most help using PHD and option B of your bionic fiber. I also went to a well known functional medicine doc who put me on the DFH multi (6 capsules/day w/ food). A couple of on/offs with the multi have strongly correlated with a return and then remission of IBS-D. The fatigue and brain fog that comes with overgrowths returned as well. I was careful to tease apart any other variables for this n=1. Paul Jaminet has also mentioned how excess nutrition via supplementation may drive overgrowths. So, again, thoughts on powder-ey supplements affecting overgrowths?
I love your recent posts, btw! You, Robb, the Jaminets and Chris Kresser are the only people I still trust/follow after years of being online in the paleo sphere. Keep it going!
Gemma,
ReplyDeleteYou and Grace have been amazingly patient and generous with all the questions and general confusion.
Thank you for taking so much time.
Personally I love all the sleuthing and figuring it out bit by bit. A whole new approach to health and we are figuring it out between us all right now! Exciting!
Love your work,
and Cheers! to a glass of beet kvass.
Gemma (cont from above...),
ReplyDeleteBy the way, YOU should start up a blog too!
We'd all come visit
:-)
Andrea
Dear Dr. BG,
ReplyDeleteI am gushing about your compliment! But alas, I am no Gut God. I am a mere mortal worshiping at your bare Gut Goddess feet. Perhaps I am Prometheus and I may borrow some of your divine fiery knowledge?
I was intrigued by your comments about your concern for the lectin enhancing effects of gum fibers. You also mentioned that psyllium and acacia may not have been a part of our ancestral diet.
I found only these two papers on the subject.
1 vegetable gums increase lectin hemaglutinability
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1343743
2 Enhancement of lectin-erythrocyte agglutination by gums.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3179318
I have only access to the abstracts. The title of the first one is vegetable gums but the abstract only discusses acacia. The second abstract eludes to gums in general but only singles out guar gum as the most effective enhancer of lectin. I wonder if these studies apply to psyillium and all fiber gums? If so, what about glucomannan? If I am not mistaken this is also classified as a gum.
On a related note it seems gum acacia has been consumed for some 50,000 years by Australian Aborigines. So, perhaps it is a part of our ancestral diet?
https://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/v3-228.html
Interesting this article says that oligosacharides disable dietary lectins. I wonder if this is another example of why consuming the full spectrum of fiber would be best. Perhaps the gums and OGs could/should be taken together?
http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html
Keith Bell mentioned that gut microbes also produce lectins.
http://www.fcm.unl.pt/projectos/glicociencias/images/stories/docs/anne_imberty.pdf
I wonder if fiber gums enhance dietary lectins as well as pathogenic microbial lectins?
Plant lectins actually have antimicrobial activity
http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/38649.pdf
Interstingly c-type lectin receptors in the gut play a role in antimicrobial immunity. This is a very cool paper that describes how these lectin receptors in the gut activate immune responses in the presence of gut pathogens via our dear fiber friend beta glucans. It seems people and especially poor lab mice who lack/ have malfunctioning c-type lectin receptors are susceptible to all kinds of infections like C.albicans and klebsiella. Maybe they just need to eat more mushrooms!
http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.ppat.1003417
Anyway, I spew forth random quasi-ignorant thoughts and digress.
My question(s) is(are):
Do you currently take or recommend psyllium, acacia or glucomannan? I like to mix and match these with my potato starch and some mushroom powders like turkey tail. But I only do it for health benefits so if they have more minuses then pluses they will be tossed from the fiber equation. What do you think?
If you do not recommend psyllium can you advise on a good non-grain arabinoxylan source, if one exists? lentils? whole grain rice?
Here is a great PDF book if you are interested in Paul Stamet about how mushrooms can save the world.
http://decroissons.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/paul-stamets-mycelium-running-how-mushrooms-can-help-save-the-world.pdf
He also has a book about picking magic mushrooms for anyone wanting to go down that particular rabbit hole.
Eagerly anticipating your divine answers!
Tyler
Dr BG,
ReplyDeleteYou said: “Don't take green banana flour or potato starch at high dose without the entire plant fiber spectrum for a long period of time: inulin, oligosaccharides[…]”
Is there a difference in fiber content between green bananas and green plantains? I read somewhere that green plantains contain RS, Inulin and FOS. Here in Holland we can easily get “fresh” green plantains. So I eat them a lot and I thought that together with cooked and cooled potatoes I’ll get all the important gut-bug-food I need (RS2, RS3, Inulin and FOS). But now I understand that I was wrong about the fiber content of green plantains and I need to eat other foods to get FOS and Inulin?
How important are the other fibers you listed for the gut bugs?
One more thing, I have access to a garden which is used 10+ years for organic gardening. I can’t eat the produce from it because the owner wants to eat it herself. So I can’t lick the dirt of carrots and beets as you advice to get a more diverse gutflora. But what about eating a teaspoon of dirt every week or so to get a more diverse gutflora? Everyone says that I am crazy for thinking about that so that’s why I didn’t do it.
Thanks,
Daniel
@anon
ReplyDeleteI think you need to have access to the dirt on the roots of the veggie. That's where the interesting bugs are lurking. A tsp of random soil in the garden may actually contain something entirely different and unwelcome ...
would like to remind everybody of the high RS in buckwheat(30%) and the acceptable and palatable bread made from it,,no you will never replace the taste of wheat bread,,i have been making fermented buckwheat bread for 2 years now and eat 4 or 6 slices/week,just an alternative for grain free and/or gluten free people still looking to have a slice of bread with their eggs
ReplyDeletenow and then,,
Dr. BG What is your opinion of green powders, organic dehyrated vegetables ground to a fine powder. If the whole plant is used, wouldn't the value be pretty high? I like to used them in smoothies with RS powders.
ReplyDeletehi all
ReplyDeletei have a general question about this whole thing, while i am inclined to agree about the need for good bacteria,
i still don't understand the whole picture, why arent they healthier in Africa? in theory they should be exposed to all bacteria because there is no modern Sanitation,so why are ppl there dying young etc?
does it mean that there is a basic level of sanitation that is indeed healthy and life saving?
were ppl healthier in pre war eastern Europe? i remember hearing from my parents that every house had kids dying young and 70 was considered very old, they werent exposed to modern food either
so its like we made a breakthru but then messed it up by going all clean?
sorry for reposting i wanted to get alerted by email
ReplyDeletehi all
i have a general question about this whole thing, while i am inclined to agree about the need for good bacteria,
i still don't understand the whole picture, why arent they healthier in Africa? in theory they should be exposed to all bacteria because there is no modern Sanitation,so why are ppl there dying young etc?
does it mean that there is a basic level of sanitation that is indeed healthy and life saving?
were ppl healthier in pre war eastern Europe? i remember hearing from my parents that every house had kids dying young and 70 was considered very old, they werent exposed to modern food either
so its like we made a breakthru but then messed it up by going all clean?
@aj1441
ReplyDeleteHi!
Listen, Africa is a huge continent with very diverse countries, in terms of geography, climate, culture, society, etc, etc. You can't ask "why aren't they healthier in Africa ?" Are you talking about Algeria, South-Africa, Cameroon, Zimbabwe, and so on ?
Second, don't think that they all live like hunter-gatherers in Africa and therefore they should be healthy ... Have you ever seen a township in SA ? I mean, there are many areas that are populated sort of ad-hoc and such large ad-hoc concentrations of humans is a recipe for diseases. You'd have to go to quite remote areas where they still live in small villages practising some traditional farming to find more healthy people (when they can live off the land). But that does not exempt people from other causes of mortality (and sadly, in many areas, the causes are man-made: guerillas, wars, regional conflicts, and in some of them you can be sure that western countries are pulling some wires).
So it is really difficult to answer your question because you can't just simplify Africa to people living off the land without modern means. No way.
Dr. B G,
ReplyDeleteHaving read your wonderful blog for months along with Tim's blog and Free the Animal, I have been making an effort to synthesize the information into something of a daily routine; not one written in stone but flexible while still focused on consuming fermentable starches, fibers, probiotics, etc. My general routine is as follows and I would like to ask you to briefly view it and tell me if their is anything I am doing wrong, forgetting, overkill, etc.
All meals include homemade fermented veggies.
Mid morning --- drink made with 2 teaspoons of Dr. Richard Schulze' Intestinal Formula 2 which includes the following: Flax Seed, Psyllium Seed, Apple Pectin, Activated Willow Charcoal, Marshmallow Root, Pharmaceutical Grade Bentonite Clay, Slippery Elm Bark, Peppermint Leaf and Cayenne Pepper Blend
Mid afternoon -- my own concoction made with 1 small teaspoon each of the following: potato starch, green banana starch, glucomannan, NutraFlora FOS, Yacon Starch, larch arabinogalactan and Psyllium.
Other -- I try to include some RS3 with each meal either cooked cooled brown rice, potato or beans. (My wife and I are mostly Paleo).
I have just this week taken to foraging through the extensive produce section of our local enormous Whole Foods and have been eating raw budock root and curcumin root as a snack.
At bedtime, it is one tablespoon of potato starch and one Prescript Assist, one AOR Probiotic-3 and three Primal Defense Ultras.
Finally, I knock back a couple of 32 oz bottles over the course of a week of Inner-Eco Kefir probiotic.
Thoughts?
Hey AWebb,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your kind words -- I'll be on Robb's podcast in Nov. Pls ck it out later! Love those guys too -- Robb and his wife Nicki basically changed our lives.
Certainly multivits and B vitamins can feed the rogues and renegades much like how FODMAPS, RS and starches can for vulnerable guts. On the other hand, in vulnerable guts and stressed people, minerals and B vitamins are super depleted often because of malabsorption syndromes and need replenishment. It's a difficult spot to be in! I think your observations may be telling.
When the gut is healthy, minerals are aided in absorption. Prebiotics and probiotics have been shown to increase mag and zinc absorption. B vitamins are in our fermented foods and all of our probiotics produce them.
B Ames and I
Bruce Ames has postulated that nowhere on earth do we acquire all the minerals and vitamins that we need for mitochondrial and whole body health. So I do feel multivits have a strong place and particularly after optimal gut health is achieved!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1693790/
Andrea~
I totally concur. Gemma is a brilliant and gorgeous gem and I'd love to read her more and any of her insights. She bridges many science realms: plant, nutri sci, adrenal/hormone, and diet. I luv her!!
Tyler
ReplyDeleteI enjoy your digressions and quasi-brilliance and random deep thoughts! Please continue...
Yes Krispin is good -- C type lectins in our gut are very interesting. Just like antibodies and sIgA, I think they are have roles to protect but under 'modern' circumstances, they turn and become misdirected, making us ill and chronically sick. The gut flora and their metabolites regulate and control this.
Do you currently take or recommend psyllium, acacia or glucomannan? I like to mix and match these with my potato starch and some mushroom powders like turkey tail. But I only do it for health benefits so if they have more minuses then pluses they will be tossed from the fiber equation. What do you think?
"If you do not recommend psyllium can you advise on a good non-grain arabinoxylan source, if one exists? lentils? whole grain rice?" AX is mostly found in grains so yes brown/red/purple/black rice are super. The pseudo grains have great fiber but not sure if it is AX (quinoa, amaranth, millet, etc). These have carbs naturally so their inclusion may be dictated by how much exercise, chronic cardio, toxins, genetics and insulin resistance exists.
YES -- those are exactly the petri dish gum+lectin interactions. In Greece gums are used ancestrally for tummy problems and probably antimicrobially. One is now used as an H pylori eradication tool by integrative practitioners -- mastic gum. The gum acacia I've looked at also comes from Africa, Sengali. Gums are how plants defend against pests -- as they ooze from wounds made by pathogenic insects, bugs, etc.
SHROOMS are super, no? I appreciate all the links! I'd love to learn how to forage and not kill myself. Beta glucan is really a fascinating fiber. I didn't know about the role of lectin receptors. Incredibly amazing. You can get beta glucan from barley and oats, but I suspect that our own yeasts sacrifice up their beta glucan upon termination of their life cycles in our gut. We have about 3-7% yeast abundance in healthy guts, and they perform vital roles, when they are not going insane in hostile and adverse terrains (like after antibiotics, high sugar diets and lack of their friends -- bifido, lacto, entero and the soil probiotics!)
"Do you currently take or recommend psyllium, acacia or glucomannan? I like to mix and match these with my potato starch and some mushroom powders like turkey tail. " That sounds awesome. I currently take a formula that blasts body fat (when I stay away from ice cream and desserts, lol):
--gum acacia
--inulin
--GBF
I had to chuck the glucomannan and psyllium because I couldn't throat it down. Didn't make me want to hurl but but I guess they present with a yuck factor for me (and probably many others). Also the above made me struggle with hypoglycemia all the f*kcin time, dunno why with my workouts and etc. I was constantly having to eat. Anyway, these are utopian problems. Diversity in my gut is still a struggle. I can't live on a farm -- which is ironically when I feel most optimal!
I love how your farmer friends keep you well stocked. How lucky U R!
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteThat sucks! Find a new farm! Organic farms are about sharing imho.
"Is there a difference in fiber content between green bananas and green plantains?" I have no idea. I just tried green plantains recently -- if you can get or make your own dried chips, I suspect, you'll get in some valid and good sources of insoluble fiber just because when things dry up, they must make a complex that remain resistant to the actions of our intestinal flora. Cooked green bananas and green plantains are used ancestrally as gut remedies, ulcers and infectious gastro and colitis. I suspect that the resistant carbs breakdown upon cooking into oligos (sorry no evidence, but just food science). Cooking breaks these down just as enzymatic degradation by microbial action. Basically where RS is high, OS is low and vice versa. It's the ripening effect I think.
"How important are the other fibers you listed for the gut bugs?" Really it might depend on your health goals, genetics, what is missing and what is overgrowing. Diversity of fiber (like in the diet of the rugby players and people who consume traditional, unrefined diets) have diverse gut flora, which is strongly linked to longevity and reduction in diseases.
Anon and frenchfry
ReplyDeleteThx! Yes when I talk about dirt I'm talking about really healthy dirt that is associated with really healthy plant roots. in the forests, the roots are all over, underground.
In a garden with annuals, not so much. If you are talking perennials and permaculture, there is more root undergrowth, particuarly the highly nourishing mycelium and mycorrhizal networks (which are like facebook and twitter -- connecting large swaths of individuals and groups).
Canadianfishfinder!
That sounds so yummmmy!!!!!! Whats you're recipe? do you soak the buckwheat first?
I just had a chance to buy and taste traditionally fermented amaranth (or millet?) bread from a lady from Africa. it is tangy! and so YUMMMILICIOUS. It's very thin and can be layered like lasagna too. I had to freeze so I think I killed all the bugs.
Anon,
ReplyDelete"What is your opinion of green powders, organic dehyrated vegetables ground to a fine powder. If the whole plant is used, wouldn't the value be pretty high? " I like the green powders (as in the bionic fiber formula) because they work to heal the gut and tighten up loose, broken junctions. It appears the antioxidant and ORAC values are retained for these dried powders.
Anon
"so its like we made a breakthru but then messed it up by going all clean?" Yes I concur. In my parents generation in Taiwan, they had some siblings die of childhood infections (pulmonary, malaria, TB, etc). They had better guts, but these infections caused acute illness which subsequently lead to death. We don't see this as much now because of potent antibiotics and asthma drugs.
The elderly back then were way way healthier than our elderly now (according to what I read and what people tell me). In fact most of our elderly now have daily pain and degenerative problems. It's livable but there was a trade-off somewhere. Look at the centenarians and long-lived in blue zone areas? Way different than those on SAD and Rx'd 10 drugs daily.
FrenchFry and aj1441,
ReplyDeleteWhen I was talking about Africa, I meant the rural Burkino Faso ones and the ones eating traditional diets like (non GMO) maize porridges and fermented grains, beans, vegetables, etc. No refrigeration (and thus no modern world vaccines lol which require modern fridges).
African Americans transplanted or in africa consuming the SAD still have the same degenerative conditions as America and Western countries. Usually they have the same modern gut disruptors
--antibiotics
--livestock with antibiotics
--C sections, formula
etc.
Grace, it's
ReplyDeleteBurkina Faso.
Some nice people there :)
lol
ReplyDeletepotato potata
bikini birkenstocks!!
Dr. Grace,
ReplyDeleteI think you are the most important person alive.
I think Barefoot Gut Goddess or Master of the Universe or Nobel Gut Peace Prize are all warranted.
Regina
REgina
ReplyDeleteAs ur probably aware, few things make me blush, but you do lol ahaha.
Thx for your kind thoughts, but I'm just a big fan and advocate for lowly guts!!
Hi! I kind of feel like Anonymous #1.... but I love Grace all the same and thank her for writing this.
ReplyDeleteSo, just wanted to relate my experience that what Grace writes about losing L. Acidophilus populations - this is true, true, true!!! I bought something like 2.5 lbs of potato starch, and some psyllium fiber. I took both because I was concerned about the state of my gut flora. Had some major yeast issues that were not resolving, but thanks to the SCD Lifestyle doctor, treating my adrenals and yeast has made a world of difference.
Anyway, back to the RS trial - I tried to eat plant foods every day but I thought, "what the heck, it doesn't hurt to try it, right?"
But it actually did hurt to try it. I developed a milk sensitivity. And while the milk sensitivity was only observed by me, the significant drop in Lactobacillus population was actually measured - I had a gut test, Doctor's Data Parasitology x 3, that showed significantly decreased Lactobacillus populations!! I was surprised by that result since I had used probiotics so much in the past, and had tried taking JarrowDophilus (which has L. Acidophilus or L. Gasseri, whatever they are now calling it), and have always been able to eat and drink milk without problem.
I blame myself for being a sheep.
I think from now on, I'll stick to eating as many different plant foods as possible, via my farmer's market (aka a regular 'ole elitist instead of a paleo potato-starch toting elitist.)
I'm starting to feel like (based on personal experience and also observation) Paleo and GAPS Introduction Diets are good for people who have gut issues, but once they solve the underlying gut issue and adrenal issue - keeping in mind this can involve 3 different stool tests as necessary for me (the Organix Urinary one, the Doctor's Data One to find out my loss of Lactobacillus, the Metametrix Ecology to find a parasite, and the BioHealth 401H to find out I had H Pylori), or issues, they can and should stop cutting out as many foods and start introducing more foods - nuts, beans, and even pseudo-grains or regular grains as she advises when you are coming off the diet. GAPS is not supposed to be for life and I don't feel like "Paleo" as defined by Cordain and even Wolf or Sisson or maybe even PHD should be either (although I like PHD because it allows a vegetarian version and beans as long as you prepare them correctly).
Paleo was a useful diet for 1 month to calm my inflammation before I ever knew anything about stool tests, and was GAPS for 1 week. In that sense, they significantly, significantly helped! And likewise, I also had SIBO of L Acidophilus - and maybe RS + Psyllium would have worked awesome at clearing that up. (Botanicals worked too)
Anyway, thanks for clearing it up Grace. I read your blog for education and fun and thank you for posting, but I think I'll leave the experiments to making tasty food in my kitchen. I blame only myself for not doing the research and waiting for others to do it for me!!!!
DR BG IS AWESOME GIRLS FUREVER.
So, I am reading Martin Blaser's book, Missing Microbes.
ReplyDeleteHe s making a big case for the fact that H. Pylori used to be a dominant organism in everyone, that it was part of the balancing act amongst our microbial community. And now only some wealthier people in The world still have it...
I am only early on in the book so I cannot report any conclusions of his on H. Pylori, but but I wanted to mention this for those people reporting being puzzled about their H. Pylori results. It is not as simple as no Pylori being a good thing.
Oh, now I see where Grace wrote:
.Kombucha has a pH of about 2-3 apparently and Hannah from Kombucha Kamp has written about how kombucha instantly heals H pylori. I think part of the mechanism as you alluded above is that the acidity lowers H pylori's need to self-protect itself in the face of insufficient acidity.
Hmmmm.......
Dr. B G,
ReplyDeleteAny comments, critique etc of my daily regimen posted above at September 19, 2014 9:06 AM would be most welcome.
Furtherj along in Dr Blaser's book, he says
ReplyDelete"...a body of research.....was showing that H. pylori
Help regulaye stomach acidity by causing inflammation that affects the stomach hormones that in turn switch acid production on and off"
" we were finding that H.pylori, discovered as a pathogen, is really a double edged sword: as you age, it increases your risk for ulcers and then later for stomach cancer, but it is good for the esophagus, protecting you against GERD and its consequences, including a different cancer. As H.pylori is disappearing, stomach cancer is falling, but esophageal adenocarcinoma is rising. "
"I am also convinced that time is on my side, that truth will out, and. That we will learn to give more personalized treatments ---- to decide who should have H. pylori eliminated, who should keep it, and who should have it restored"
Re: gums. Ancestors ate tree gums, barks, sap. Pine, birch, spruce, what have you. My thought is that you should eat whatever you CAN eat, within reason. Your ancestors certainly did. When we were kids, we'd scrape pine gum off pine trees and chew on that, pick honeysuckle and suck the nectar, pick wild blackberries and eat without washing, run around in the dirt, barefoot, and lick the dirty sweat that ran down our faces. My grandmother used to say you have to eat a peck of dirt before you die.
ReplyDeleteGrace, You might remember I suggested taking a combination of fermentable,Viscous fibres together with Raw Potato Starch
ReplyDeleteand Wheat Bran in my post on Freetheanimal (December 2013). In addition I suggested including Polyphenols along with the fibre/Starch mix to modulate the COMPOSITION of the Gut microbiota. I also mentioned taking a complex made up of Polyphenols and Gelatin. This complex would be stable in the acid ph of the Stomach but break up into Polyphenol and Gelatin in the Intestines, thus delivering the Polyphenols where you want them to be. I am very keen on Polyphenols from Pomegranate fuit and seeds, Amla fruit and Neem leaves.
By the way, you forgot to mention GALACTOMANNAN polysaccharides in your list. It's found in a fantastic amount and in a ratio of Mannose to Galactose of 1:1 in FENUGREEK seeds!
@Tolo,
ReplyDeleteWeed, Seed and then Feed.
You are most likely carrying Sulphur Reducing Bacteria in your Colon and feeding them via the metabolites produced from fermentation of RS and other dietary fibres. To reduce the population of these bugs (they produce Hydrogen Sulphide) you need to do two things. Reduce the intestinal ph and reduce population of these bugs.
First, Weed. Take Neem Leaf tea three times a day for 10 days. Then introduce a variety of Probiotic bugs via supplements and Fermented foods. Only then introduce the RS and other fermentable fibres.
Ashwin Patel
ReplyDeleteYes pardon me, you were advocating full spectrum fiber and rs from the beginning! Thank you for posting! Miss seeing u.
I love fenugreek and its insulin sensitizing effects. How do you eat it, ground in a mortar and pestle? What are your thoughts on this one -- organic, kosher?
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/starwest-botanicals-fenugreek-seed-organic-1-lb-pkg?SourceCode=INTL405&CAWELAID=1683472080&catargetid=530002460000094475&cadevice=c&mkwid=ZmTeAG1e&pcrid=54515848927&gclid=CM_Q8sf78MACFaVZ7AodHloA8w
Gelatin forms an acid resistant matrix? It certainly has gut healing and mucosa lining protection effects as well.
Neem is wonderful. Where do you source your neem leaves?
The antimicrobial/fungal activity is nice. The synergism with others is excellent as well.
This is a comprehensive and fantastic source about neem and other 'weeding' sources.
http://www.medicalinsider.com/bacterial.html
Mercury is another factor that holds candida, fungi and other marauders in the gut after the good symbionts have been flushed away (bifido, enterococci, etc). For refractory cases, examining and eliminating mercury burdens is key in this toxic age.
elliebellie!
ReplyDeleteThanx for posting Blaser. He's quite wonderful aint he? Not sure if I agree with him and ILseung Cho's premise that we all require and need H pylori restoration but certainly we need the ancestral core because so many of us are missing these.
I think H pylori depends on the strain and which are 'compatible' with our ancestral guts... there is evidence in a new study earlier this year 2014 that a non ancestral strain is harmful yet a matched strain shows the benefit of this ancestral species that have been with us since we were first humans.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/4/1455
"Theory predicts that chronic pathogens with vertical or familial transmission should become less virulent over time because of coevolution. Although transmitted in this way, Helicobacter pylori is the major causative agent of gastric cancer. In two distinct Colombian populations with similar levels of H. pylori infection but different incidences of gastric cancer, we examined human and pathogen ancestry in matched samples to assess whether their genomic variation affects the severity of premalignant lesions. Interaction between human Amerindian ancestry and H. pylori African ancestry accounted for the geographic disparity in clinical presentation. We conclude that coevolutionary relationships are important determinants of gastric disease risk and that the historical colonization of the Americas continues to influence health in modern American populations."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/8/184
"These observations suggest that H. pylori strains in India share ancestral origins with their European counterparts. Further, non-existence of other sub-populations such as hpAfrica and hpEastAsia, at least in our collection of isolates, suggest that the hpEurope strains enjoyed a special fitness advantage in Indian stomachs to out-compete any endogenous strains. These results also might support hypotheses related to gene flow in India through Indo-Aryans and arrival of Neolithic practices and languages from the Fertile Crescent."
HI Anon,
ReplyDeleteSorry I missed your post.
"Mid morning --- drink made with 2 teaspoons of Dr. Richard Schulze' Intestinal Formula 2 which includes the following: Flax Seed, Psyllium Seed, Apple Pectin, Activated Willow Charcoal, Marshmallow Root, Pharmaceutical Grade Bentonite Clay, Slippery Elm Bark, Peppermint Leaf and Cayenne Pepper Blend
Mid afternoon -- my own concoction made with 1 small teaspoon each of the following: potato starch, green banana starch, glucomannan, NutraFlora FOS, Yacon Starch, larch arabinogalactan and Psyllium.
Other -- I try to include some RS3 with each meal either cooked cooled brown rice, potato or beans. (My wife and I are mostly Paleo)."
What are your health goals? Have you done testing? Are all or any chronic signs or symptoms now resolved, worse, better??
The formula looks excellent but really it depends on what your health indicates and perhaps baseline microbiota! Using clay daily may have drawbacks in binding important active supplements, medications and vitamins. It plays a role to detoxify however and bind microbial toxic metabolites. Thx for your comments -- looking forward to hearing more!
Ilaine,
ReplyDeleteVERY WISE GRANDMOTHER ;)
"My thought is that you should eat whatever you CAN eat, within reason. Your ancestors certainly did. " Thank you! I concur!!
The farmer and (non modern) poor man's diet is probably the best I think. Often I think of certain genetic variants like MTHFR and BRCA1 which are basically editors for our pathways and DNA. How did these derive from environments? I suspect our ancestral environments were truly nirvana for many and these variants just happened to occur because the need otherwise fell away when the ecology provided abundance, fertile fields/groves, rivers, spectrums of B vitamins, guts were BIONIC and absolutely no need for DNA editing.
Sad what we've come to
Mito,
ReplyDeleteThx for your comments and thoughts! You may always #1 Anonymous!!
You said 'But it actually did hurt to try it. I developed a milk sensitivity. And while the milk sensitivity was only observed by me, the significant drop in Lactobacillus population was actually measured - I had a gut test, Doctor's Data Parasitology x 3, that showed significantly decreased Lactobacillus populations!!'
We should trade! I've fixed all things since last fall -- crowded out parasites, Morganella morganii and 2-4+ candida! But with adrenal issues from moving I have too much lacto! lol It improves when I do charcoal, fiber and probiotics.
My past testing:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/09/my-n1-pre-and-post-microbiome-digestion.html
So as you noticed I have watched the trend of people like you decreasing their already marginal ancestral core be it one strain or several strains
--eubacteria
--clostridia
--bifido
--entero
--lacto
--good e coli
--f praus
etc
Many of the above do not consume RS2, yes, particularly lactobacilli. In essence people are starving and killing these species out if VLC, low fiber diet, PHD/primal/paleo what not, GAPS, SCD or even high dose raw potato starch. I totally agree with your observations.
Botanicals can do it too. These are therapeutic for overgrowths but the double edged sword yields adverse effects on already damaged guts, sadly. YOu mentioned H pylori. Eliminating H pylori can be extremely helpful to restore gut function however at the same time some of the botanicals that are anti-H pylori will decimate the beneficial symbionts, later allowing yeast and fungi overgrowths without sufficient heavy duty probiotics, prebiotics, muddy root veggies, farm exposures, and TLC for the gut lol.
How is your H pylori now? The GI Fx has an add on $5 (easy pay) for H pylori just to let you know. It is a good way to track if you are already doing the GI stool function test.
Your kitchen sounds wonderful! Would love to hear which recipes make your gut sing and soar
Mito Pedersen,
ReplyDeleteL plantarum is a human commensal. There is much value in restoration of this species. Shant writes about it on his wonderful blog:
http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/02/26/anthropology-science-is-l-plantarum-a-keystone-bacteria-for-human-health/
You'll deeply appreciate this one too -- RS2 is definitely not enuf. I believe for some, high dose creates a skewed gut favoring only the RS2 eaters, leaving bifido, lacto, entero and others literally starving to death.
http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/why-resistant-starch-is-probably-not-enough/
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted in the comments, and especially Dr. BG for all her replies! This has been incredibly helpful, but very complex, so I am bookmarking to come back for major rereading and note-taking lol.
ReplyDeleteRe the H. pylori . . I am the anonymous with a suspected H. pylori infection whose test came back negative, but I respond to other h. pylori suppressors like lactoferrin and cranberries. I don't know if I should try a different test, like the BioHealth 401H someone mentioned, or if different tests detect different strains, but if some H. pylori is beneficial I guess it's not the type I (may) have. I used to get acid reflux too, and my grandmother had h. pylori that gave her extreme intestinal pain (ulcers). Iron deficiency will eventually kill you too, if it proceeds to anemia (and is not that great to live with in the meantime), so even if there is a cancer risk with eradication, I would be fine with that. Low iron status probably increases cancer risk too, if you ascribe to nutritional triage theory of cancer, which seems common sensical to me! In the article I posted, they suspected H. pylori was causing atrophic gastritis, so clearly not beneficial . . this is obviously a nuanced issue, but I've seen that research on cancer and H. pylori before and I'm a bit ambivalent. I would speculate there are other factors involved. I suppose the antibiotics disrupted the gut flora, so perhaps using plant-based antimicrobials and a gut flora restoration program would fix that issue. Ulcers are no picnic to live with, so it'd be a difficult sell to just leave the H. pylori.
Thanks for the tip about kombucha, Dr. BG! I'll look into it. I don't usually browse the momblogs of WAPFers and fermenters, and I think that was an oversight.
So Grace, are you sayin' that we have to ditch all our little bags of white powder and actually learn to cook stuff?! OMG!
ReplyDeleteAndrea
Andrea,
ReplyDeleteMMmmhhh...
Well I do like my powders and potions though! Must be the witch/pharmacist in me.
My goal someday will be to get a sniff test of the gut (because all the microbial metabolites are organic acids and many volatile). Dogs can be trained to smell cancer by recognizing the volatile metabolites in the tumor; some are microbial in origin. I'd love to have a magic potion unique and personalized to a person's gut: Gut911. lol
Anon,
You said earlier 'There was also that article about something like >50% of people with acne (sure sign of gut issues) having achlorydria.' This is very true if not even higher! Let me know how the kombucha helps! My daughter actually has exactly what you may have. The acne has been receding since H pylori eradication but the yeasts prevail. The acne is about 50% gone with inulin, gum acacia, kombucha, probiotics and yeast protocols (curcumin, berberine, undecylenate, etc).
Ashwin uses neem, so I may try this topically next
http://www.iherb.com/Neemaura-Naturals-Inc-Concentrated-Neem-Cream-2-oz-56-g/11773
Yes I love my powders too. Makes me feels like a funny kind of gut alchemist! Every day thinking, hmmm what will I have today! Honestly I don't think I could give them up just yet. Seems to fill a spot that my soaked beans don't.
ReplyDeleteI heard about dogs sniffing out cancer. Amazing really, though not at all surprising.
Do you think that we should have a little bit of psyllium (or something like it) everytime we take a powdered starch? To ensure that everything travels further along the bowel?
When you write 'don't take GBF or PS alone', do you literally mean at that exact time, or is it ok if you have another fibre at another time of the day?
I'm possibly overthinking this...!
I had terrible acne when I was a teenager, it is all starting to make sense!
Andrea
HI Grace! Great posting, thank you! I have been reading and thinking on about this - and started worrying about the impact of too much RS and PS. Then, there it is...your post.
ReplyDeleteRS and PS was so revolutionary!! It took me 6 months to be able to eat potatoes and PS. But my gut still isn't truly healthy and I started thinking about all the other critters that should be in my gut, and how to help them or how to get them!
Question - what have you read about raw milk? I bought some frozen raw goats milk this week and drank it. In Vancouver, BC, you can't get raw milk for humans. The one I bought...is for animals. :-)
I was formula fed. Never got breastmilk. I think I am missing lots. I didn't care for the flavor but I do feel better. I sneezed lots. Also, just those few ounces, my colon feels really full....full of stuff. :-( I started thinking, maybe I should do a raw milk diet/fast...
Thoughts?
BTW, I tried Super Grass...and had major allergic reaction. My soymilk-bottle-fed immature immune system is disasterous allergic to grass... So, even thought it is "good" I can't have it (yet).
Thanks Grace!
The idea of different strains of Hp. makes sense as a possibility for how it might have been beneficial. But also I'm now wondering with regard to H.pylori is if there is some other microbe that was part of our ancestral core that is now missing from most of us that would keep Hp in check and prevent it from causing ulcers and stomach cancer but still allow it to protect against GERD and esophageal cancer. I wonder if Dr Blaser or other researchers have explored that.
ReplyDelete@Grace,
ReplyDeleteGood to be back . I rarely post because I am lazy and at work most days (long hours spent travelling to work). I'm learning a lot from your blog. Great work.
Re Fenugreek.
Indian cooking involves using Fenugreek in small amounts in most dishes. However, if you want to use it as a "herb" for medicinal purposes, it needs to be consumed in higher doses. My mum used to make a pickle containing Fenugreek seeds and Chick peas and I used to love it growing up (in East Africa). I have started making the pickle recently and its really good. I reproduce my recipe below:
Fenugreek Seeds......................................150Gram
Chick Peas(Preferably Red)....................250G
Lemons (juice of).....................................3
Salt...........................................................to taste
Green Chili...............................................2
Olive Oil....................................As needed..see method
Whole Garlic Cloves................................3
Asafoetida (Hing)................................2G
Pickle masala Powder mix.................10G (see recipe below)
1. Soak the Fenugreek Seeds and Chick Peas in water overnight. I allow the seeds to soak for a couple of hours and then wash the lot to remove any Bitterness. Replace the water and add the salt at this stage. The salt also prevents the seeds from Germinating or sprouting as this would reduce the store of Galactomannan and Oligofructose in the seeds.
2. On day two remove the water (I use a large sieve) and dry the seeds using kitchen paper.
3. Add some of the Olive oil in a Wok (say one tablespoon), heat and add the Asafoetida, Green Chili and the Seeds. Now add the Lemon Juice and Garlic.
4. Cook for 3 minutes whiling mixing all the ingredients.
5. Pour the mix into an airtight Glass Jar.
6. On day three add Olive oil into the Jar to cover the Seeds.
7. Leave the jar tightly closed in a warm place for 5 days.
It is then ready.
Pickle Masala Powder Recipe from India
100g Dried red chillies
1 tbsp Dried Fenugreek leaves
2 tbsp Moong (dried Mung beans)
1 tbsp Cumin seeds
1 tbsp Mustard seeds
1 tsp Turmeric) powder
I wonder if this pickle could be regarded as a fermented food. In any case, it is great source of Galactomannan and Oligosaccharides.
I source my ingredients in a local Asian supermarket but do not know if they are Organic. most of them appear to originate from India or Australia.
For those who may not be keen on pickle, Fenugreek fibre is available as Fenufibre and is claimed to be an aid for diabetics.
http://www.fenufibre.com/
Oh, wait! Is that what those studies you posted were saying?
ReplyDeleteWe conclude that coevolutionary relationships are important determinants of gastric disease risk and that the historical colonization of the Americas continues to influence health in modern American populations."
All this deep sciency talk is fascinating, but hard on my old brain!
@Ashwin, when do you add the masala?
ReplyDelete@elliebelly
ReplyDeleteHello.
I add the Masala powder after the "cooking" process. Mix it in really well and the pack the lot in a glass jar.
Andrea,
ReplyDeleteIt probably matters both -- at the same time as well as later (because this is how poo is formed LOL).
Here's a study Cummings 1996, low fiber diet (NSP 5 g/day) combined with either RS3 (cooked) 17-19 g/day or RS2 (raw GBF and RPS) 27-30 g/d.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8695600
Too bad they didn't have the DNA analysis technology yet to analyze these stools! But what they found was kinda disturbing to me. The raw RS2 was linked with a 50% increase in sluggish poo transit times compared with 18 g/day NSP. This is not ideal particularly in the presence of fecal carcinogens. There was also a lack of 'bulking'. If someone is putting a condom on, which is smoother: limp or firm? RS3 performs much better, even with the doses lower. RS3 actually behaves like insoluble fiber in the gut -- it pulls in water, bulks and acts 'FIRM'.
I've gotten a habit to eating little tart organic apples all day -- each one has 3 g fiber (2 g insoluble). It's like negative calories lol, like celery. If I eat 4 per day, that is 12 g/day of NSP. In addition to others: brown rice, beans, broccoli, salads, etc.
There are many ways to mimic our ancestors and their enormous ancestral intakes but it does take some work. It is estimated our ancestors may have consumed over 100-120 g/day fiber/RS. For modern purposes (and our reduced activity), I suspect 50 to 60 g might be the spot that maximizes our gut function to its optimum potential.
Total, soluble, and insoluble fiber in veg, fruit, grains, legumes:
http://huhs.harvard.edu/assets/File/OurServices/Service_Nutrition_Fiber.pdf
Nice inulin v RS chart:
http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com/p/dietary-fiber-info.html
Green plantain and banana chips?? These are fantastic and Tim has encouraged these from the beginning.
I wish I had the NSP breakdown! I think they are enriched in insoluble matrices due to being dried and dessicated.
Natasha v. Potato
ReplyDeleteThat is great you can tolerate some potatoes! That means your microvilli are healing. What else is working?
--exercise, esp 20 min after meals to get the muscles and juices flowing
--acidity (kombucha, kraut with meals)?
--which probiotics
--any weeding, esp as Ashwin and I are discussing?
Maybe try small doses gradually to get the enzymes and digestion accustomed to new sources? I did that at first too and paid a little price! I missed dairy so much! I can tolerate quite a bit more now (raw) but in the beginning I had to go super slow, unfortunately.
Frozen goat milk probably has killed probiotics, but still better than none!
elliebellie~!
ReplyDeleteYES! There was an H pylori mismatch and this may have lead to disease as a consequence.
elliebellie
ReplyDeleteUR BRILLIANT. That is an amazing line of thought "But also I'm now wondering with regard to H.pylori is if there is some other microbe that was part of our ancestral core that is now missing from most of us that would keep Hp in check and prevent it from causing ulcers and stomach cancer but still allow it to protect against GERD and esophageal cancer. "
What is Hp's partner?
What is the optimal ecology for both host and Hp?
Why does Hp become virulent instead of helpful??
Ashwin
ReplyDeleteI've learned so much from you. Thx for taking the time to post! I love that recipe -- yes I think it is fermented with wild microbes. It sounds absolutely wonderful. When I get my own kitchen back in our house, it will be one of the first recipes I'll be trying. I'm lucky there are many Indian shops around in the Bay Area and can probably find the fenugreek seeds. It's great for diabetes which I had heard about from some of my patients.
I love Dr Myhill -- I concur with her about how the small intestines are carnivorous and the large, composty and herbivorous.
That is interesting that the Masala Powder includes ground mung beans? Is that ok to consume raw and unsoaked?
OMG I get it now!! I think you had posted on that and I was reading up on gel tannates but it absolutely made no sense at the time. "If you add your chosen Polyphenol source into Vinegar (Acetic Acid), the Polyphenols are hydrolysed and the Phenolic acid is released. On adding Gelatin (pre softened in Vinegar) , the Phenolc acids combine with the Gelatin to give you a complex . This Complex is often referred to as GELATIN TANNATE"
So glucuronic and acetic acid from fermented foods may work too? LIke chutneys? Fermented polyphenol foods + bone, gelatin broths are good gut combinations.
I entirely agree: "CONTROL of microbial growth appears to be the desirable avenue and one which nature seems to adopt in the Gut. (antimicrobial peptides, Secretory IgA, Bacterocins, Lysozyme, etc)"
Our immunity and barriers wer set up hundreds of millions of years ago for essentially two things:
(1) fetuses
(2) internal gut microbes
Both are mutualistic and almost parasitic lol yet we need for longevity and growth.
Neem is so fascinating! Thank you for the links and sources!! Probiotics break up biofilms as well probably for their own defenses. Once the rogue and renegade pathogens establish, I do think it is necessary to melt affected biofilms. Herbals can disrupt as well
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18243157
"Perhaps we should be studying the function and structure of the intestinal mucosal Barrier more?
Would you write an article on the Integrity of the intestinal Barrier?"
This might be the key, no? I suspect that the missing ancestral core play the largest part. When these are amputed, the gut just cannot function to its full barrier or maximal fermentive capacity.
ReplyDelete"Polyphenols in medicinal foods like Turmeric, Indian Gooseberry (Amla), Pomegranate Seeds and Peal, Neem leaves and Bark are mostly Tannins.
If you add your chosen Polyphenol source into Vinegar (Acetic Acid), the Polyphenols are hydrolysed and the Phenolic acid is released. On adding Gelatin (pre softened in Vinegar) , the Phenolc acids combine with the Gelatin to give you a complex . This Complex is often referred to as GELATIN TANNATE"
So if you eat your fermented polyphenols alongside your gelatinous broth, will the gelatin and the polyphenols find each other in your acidic stomach and become the gelatin tannate?
I put oak leaves in my half sour dills so that the tannins keep the cukes crisp. Would the liquid from that ferment qualify as part of the equation.
Great question Elliebellie!
ReplyDeleteAshwin, Also I forgot to ask you about your thoughts on Triphala? I like amla and Asian sour plums. I think the gut effects and antioxidants in our ancestral foods are superior.
And speaking of fenugreek seeds, here is an easy thing to do with them:
ReplyDeleteMake a mix of
2T mustard seed
2T cumin seeds
2T black cumin seeds
1T fenugreek seeds
1T fennel seeds
Put all in airtight glass jar and store in dark
Great with lentils, bit can use with almost anything
Simply add a small amount to heated oil, moving around till they release their fragrance. Then add cooked lentils and anything else.
I'm experting with different herbs, that sounds like a fragrant and heady combo. Thx elliebellie!! Black cumin seed has some wonderful properties.
ReplyDeleteDo you eat any Ashwin?
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteI'd love to write on barrier function and integrity but that would fill volumes and be encyclopedic!!
When you talk about barriers, then it is 100% immunity and microbiota focused -- what's missing and what's present like fungi and yeasts.
Have you read Orian Truss MD?
http://www.thecandidadiet.com/research/1980-v09n04-p287.pdf
As females we are easily susceptible to immunosuppression because this is the switch to allow preganancy, a foreign object to live and thrive in an internal environment. I had over 10 years of birth control before and after my kids and I'm certain this affected their immunity and susceptibility to candida and subsequent leaky barriers. Plus genetics -- our genetics perhaps makes us more vulnerable to modern diets and toxins -- xenoestrogens, gluten, etc. We have some markers for IBD and gluten related diseases (biliary cirrhosis, T1 diabetes, FUT2, COMT, etc)
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteGood to see your posts again. Could you please link to your post on FTA? I tried searching for your name but it doesn't allow me search the comments in there.
You said:
"Polyphenols in medicinal foods like Turmeric, Indian Gooseberry (Amla), Pomegranate Seeds and Peal, Neem leaves and Bark are mostly Tannins."
Are you suggesting that taking these foods raw (ex. turmeric powder in some coconut oil) is not going to give you the max benefit or no benefit at all -because it is mostly tannins? What about the polyphenols in fenugreek then? Should they be soaked in Apple Cider Vinegar before consuming as well? Is mixing with gelatin absolutely necessary? Sorry for all the questions but if I am to take these herbs and suffer thru the unpleasant taste, I better get the max mileage out of them, right?
I currently mix fenugreek powder(available at Indian stores for $2/lb) with various other fibers (rice bran, PS, inulin, green powder, glucomannon + probiotics etc) in my pre-breakfast concoction and then eat my eggs + frozen beans for breakfast. Oh yeah, I take a tsp of ACV + beet kvas in the morning.
Planning to add turmeric+ black pepper + ginger and Amla powder to make the concoction even more disgusting :-(
ReplyDeleteGrace, where do you source your banana flour from? WeDo can get expensive for a family of 4. I got my plantain flour from Barry Farms last time but they could not confirm if it was raw or cooked, so I am rethinking.
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteGiven your Indian roots, what are your thoughts on oil pulling? Although it is an Ayurvedic remedy, I do not see many Indians doing this anymore. It kinda had a brief revival in early to mid 90's but I don't see anyone doing this anymore.
I have been doing this for a few weeks now and my teeth are definitely stronger and a shade whiter but I do not know if there are any health benefits. I certainly feel a clearer head in the morning after oil pulling but I not sure if it should be attributed to oil pulling or the facial exercise it accords. Would love to hear your thought on this as well.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/ysa5OBhXz-Q?feature=player_embedded
ReplyDeleteI just saw this . So similar to what we are talking about here with regard to the ecosystem of the gut. A key species changes everything.
I found the link to your post on FTA Ashwin. And it is compulsory reading for everyone trying to design their own fiber mix. Gold star to you Ashwin!
ReplyDeleteHere it is-
http://freetheanimal.com/2013/04/resistant-assimilation-resistance.html#comment-548563
Ashwin, appreciate if you could share the approximate ratio of all these fibers in your mix.
ReplyDeleteHI T-Nat!
ReplyDeleteWe have been slowly grinding thru free samples of WeDo's and Mt Uncle. They taste gross, so my kids revolted and it's just me. Stirring in a lot of inulin really helps the gritty taste.
Tim Gerstmar told me has a jar he fills every week with random fiber and RS. Several things go on rotation: plantain flour, GBF, RPS, other goodies lol.
RE: oil pulling I started occasionally and notice also great benefits. The oral cavity is the gateway to the gut. I believe altering the microflora there actually impacts our gut in a big way but of course haven't seen any studies. What studies show is that whatever in in the mouth, is in the gut.
elliebellie
ReplyDeleteWOW that is fabulous 'How Wolves Change Rivers' by lowering the populations of deer and elk which chew up excessive vegetation.
Yes precisely the ecosystem and collaborative roles of each gut member can't be overstated. One species makes the biggest deal!!!!! The wolves are not greedy or evil -- they just do their role. If they were fame whores and greedy Putins, then we would see ecosystem collapse, no? It is no longer balanced, harmonious or collaborative. I think this is important too.
Our gut members are a rugby team ;) hawwt, hormonally balanced, happy and healthy. No one player is the superstar. They all work together for the common goal and they can't do it alone.
I think the wolves in our gut are the ancestral core:
SBOs
Clostridia
Bacteroides
bifidobacteri
lactobacilli
enterococci
etc
See fig 3
"The host selects mucosal and luminal associations of coevolved gutmicroorganisms: a novel concept
microorganisms: a novel concept" Van den Abbeele
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21361997
Hypothesis. When bacteria cooperate for a long time in a certain spatial and functional configuration, they coevolve so that a collective
recognition is developed that is a driving factor to restore the association after perturbations. In other words, an ESS has evolved within the microbial
community. The intestinal microbial community, which as a whole performs specific tasks, may be defined as a resilient partnership. An example of such
a specific task is the degradation of polysaccharides through a complex food chain of several phylogenetically distantly related microorganisms. The
initial degradation is often mediated by versatile microorganisms mostly belonging to the Bacteroides. Members of the Clostridium cluster IX group and
Bacteroides are able to generate propionate, while microorganisms of the Clostridium cluster IV and cluster XIVa are among the dominant butyrate
producers. The assistance of other microorganisms is needed to prevent the accumulation of the generated waste products such as H2, which is
eliminated by nitrate- and sulfate-reducing bacteria, methanogenic or acetogenic microorganisms. Microorganisms that cooperate for a long time in
such syntrophic partnerships may evolve and become very complementary. Because of a severe disturbance such as an antibiotic treatment, these
associations can be perturbed. Functional redundancy, however, applies to the community, meaning that subdominant microorganisms can perform
similar functions in order to maintain the community functioning. However, after the perturbation, there is a driving force to restore the initial microbial
community
elliebellie,
ReplyDeleteOne of the most sacred strains Lactobacilli is endangered and gone in most American and Swedish guts. This is from Stig Bengmark, gut researcher.
We also don't eat enuf inulin, the 2nd most abundant plant fiber, second to resistant starch lol. 25% of healthy controls can't degrade inulin. Sad and pathetic. Too much antibiotics and gut disruptors (birth control, stress, sugar, etc)
"This reduction is especially pronounced for strong fibre-fermenting lactic acid bacteria (LAB) such as Lactobacillus plantarum and Lb. paraca- sei. Seventy-five per cent of omnivorous Americans and 25% of vegetarians in the United States lack Lb. plantarum (Finegold et al., 1983). A more recent Scandinavian study found Lb. plantarum in only 52% and Lb. paracasei in only 17% of healthy individuals (Ahrné et al., 1998). This information is partic- ularly interesting, as Lb. plantarum and Lb. paracasei belong to the small group of intesti- nal bacteria with ability to break down semi- resistant fibres such as inulin (Müller and Lier, 1994), reduce inflammation, reduce infection, and eliminate pathogenic bacteria such as Clostridium difficile (Naaber et al., 2004)."
http://bengmark.com/sites/default/files/103.%20Modified%20Amino%20Acid-based%20etc%20In%20D%C2%B4Mello%20handbook%202011.pdf
No wolves. Too many elk and deer.
Oopoh! So good to know about L.plantarum and inulin as we are soon to begin harvest of our crop of Jerusalem artichokes. We used to grow some in the distant past but dug them up because we couldn't stand the farting. If we have a similar problem this time, we will definitely add in L.plantaum caps. J
ReplyDeleteGood find T-Nat! I started to look yesterday, but gave up fairly quickly. For everybody's convenience this is Ashwin's post
ReplyDelete"I have been experimenting with Resistant starch, Soluble fiber and Insoluble fiber for a few years now and have tried all manner of plant foods to find the perfect source. My initial interest was to perfect a mix of fibers that would help make “The perfectly formed stool” that would be eliminated without straining when the Squat posture is adopted for evacuation.
However , this has since extended to include a search for a substrate that will lead to high concentrations of Short chain Fatty acids and particularly Butyric acid in the small and large intestines. I have tried Raw Rice Powder, Raw Pounded Yam, Raw Cassava Powder, Raw Banana and Plantain flour (FUFU) Raw Sweet Potatoes, Corn Starch, Barley flour, all varieties of Beans and lentils and Gum Arabic. I have also tried pure Inulin and Fructo-Oligosaccharide powders.
I have also boiled down to one important ingredient, Raw Potato Starch (independently, I might add). However, my mix contains small concentrations of Gum Arabic, Inulin, FOS, Pectin, Glucomannan,Barley Malt Extract, L-Glutamine , Wheat Bran and a Polyphenol/Gelatin complex. Potato starch does form the Bulk of the mix though.
I am delighted to have found “Free the Animal” and to find a community of like minded individuals and research based literature . It has been a lonley journey until now, although I have been recommending a simplified version in juice form in my practice to willing pateints The formula is on my website. It is a liquidized blend of a Raw Potato, Raw Carrot, Raw Beet Root, Apple or Kiwi Fruit with added unpeeled Lemon/Lime, Ginger and Pomegranate Juice. (with optional addition of Barley malt extract, Inulin Powder, FOS, Powdered Flax , Chia seeds, Basil Seeds and Raw Potato starch).
I think we all agree that Resistant starch and Potato Starch in particular is good Colon food, however it is NOT a prebiotic. This means it has the potential to feed all the microbes that have made a home in your intestines/colon. This situation is not desirable, especially for someone who may be contemplating taking Raw Potato Starch to modulate the Gut Microbiome in a positive direction to treat or prevent a medical condition. If you already suffer from an auto-immune condition where microbes may be a contributory factor, you are bound to be carrying the Bad bugs responsible (Crohn’s, Ankylosing Spondylitis, MS,etc). You do not want these to multiply wildly and make a home in your Gut!!
I believe that we need to refine the Raw Potato Starch diet and add an ingredient that will modulate the Gut Microbiome in such a manner that desirable microbes are allowed to make a home in the intestines and undesirable pathogenic bugs are discouraged or Eliminated from the Gut. I strongly believe that the source of this ingredient(s) is Herbs and Spices that Human beings have used to flavor foods for hundreds of years. Tannins or Plant Polyphenols are my favourate ingredients. Polyphenols have been found to have selective anti-biotic properties and some have been shown to have a positive modulating effect on the Gut microbiome. I think Plant polyphenols influence health by modulating the composition of the Gut microbiome at concentrations achievable by dietary inclusion rather than the Anti-Oxidant properties that can only be achieved by consuming unrealistic high doses that our ancestors never could have consumed if these agents were used only as flavoring agents in food. Even Red wine does not contain enough Resveratrol to provide the benefit only achievable at really high doses. On the other hand, it does contain small amounts of Polyphenols that may have a beneficial action on the Gut microbiome and health and longevity as a result."
cont
"Turmeric, Ginger, Neem herb, Green Tea Extract, Red Grape Extract, Cinnamon,Cocoa powder, Raspberries, Strawberries, Pomegranate fruit, Amla Powder, Thyme, Ajwain, Rosemary, Basil, Oregano and many more may be beneficial sources of suitable Polyphenols. Some of these actually disable the ability of Pathogenic Bacteria to adhere to the mucosal lining of the GI tract (Neem).
ReplyDeleteBone Broth with added herbs and spices has historically been seen as a healthy food. I think it contains a complex of Polyphenols and Gelatin that is the healthy ingredient. A complex of Tannin or Plant Polyphenols with Gelatin is known to remain intact in the mouth and Stomach due to the acid ph. However, the alkaline ph of the small intestine and Colon allows the Polyphenol and Gelatin complex to break up to release the active principles which will have arrived at the “site of action”. Tannins can be astringent and have a puckering effect on the tongue. Tannins can also bind with Iron and other nutrients (and some Meds) in the Stomach and interfere with absorption. This Targeted delivery is really useful and avoids the side effects. You can easily make a complex of any Polyphenol Herb/Spice by adding the whole spice to Gelatin softened in some Distilled or Wine Vinegar (a source of Acetic Acid) and blending for the “reaction” to take place. You can use the resulting mix or allow the vinegar to evaporate to obtain the powder complex!
My daily dose of Potato Starch contains small amounts of Gum Arabic(Acacia), Inulin, FOS, Barley malt extract, Pectin,Glucomannan (Konjac), Powdered Flax , Basil seeds and Chia Seeds, Ginger, L-Glutamine powder, and a pinch of the all important Polyphenol/Gelatin Complex!! I can actually “feel” the benefit every morning! Sadly,I have not experienced the vivid dreams some of you have.
What do you think?"
Dr BG,
ReplyDeleteI am concerned about the research I have read(Mostly out of Asia) on the association of Cancer and fermented vegetables. If you Google Kimchee or Preserved vegetables and Cancer, there are numerous studies showing the connection between various Digestive system cancers and fermented vegetables. There is also an interesting meta analysis that concludes that fermented soy products, but not unfermented soy products are associated with Cancer.
While I see the benefits to gut flora, why is everyone ignoring the association with cancer? I would like to include them more in my diet but frankly I am scared. I would love to hear your view on this.
Wonderful post Ashwin. The juice sounds amazing - might need to finally get a juicer rather than blending everything! And this part is also very interesting
ReplyDelete"You can easily make a complex of any Polyphenol Herb/Spice by adding the whole spice to Gelatin softened in some Distilled or Wine Vinegar (a source of Acetic Acid) and blending for the “reaction” to take place. You can use the resulting mix or allow the vinegar to evaporate to obtain the powder complex!"
Would you mind giving a little more information on how much vinegar to herb/spice. How long you leave it for, and how you evaporate it. Is it simply pouring a little into a shallow tray?
Thank you! Off to add more 'bulk' to my RS mix.
Andrea
Re excess WeDo Banana Flour, they make a pretty good muffin which should have some RS 3. I rarely use any flours anymore, but these are easy to keep in fridge or freeze
ReplyDelete1/2 c banana flour
1/2 cup almond flour
3 T pumpkin/sunflower seed, lightly ground
1/2 c coconut shreds
1 tsp ea salt, cinnamon, baking soda
2 T melted ghee, or coconut oil
2 large or 4 small eggs
2 handfuls cranberries or blueberries.
Re Oil Pulling
ReplyDeleteThere are many papers, believe or not!
Ayurveda prescribes oil pulling with sesame/sunflower oil, 20 minutes, preferably in the morning, seems our forefathers have know why even without our modern scientific methods. I have been using oil pulling for a long time -- almost daily.
First, sesame oil inhibits candida growth just by itself:
Effect of Edible Sesame Oil on Growth of Clinical Isolates of Candida albicans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24057219
"Elderly individuals are at increased risk of oral thrush (oral candidiasis) due to decreased saliva secretion. Due to their antimicrobial properties, edible oils can be effective natural agents for oral care. The objective of the present study was to compare the effects of sesame oil, which is widely used for cooking in Asian countries, and two other edible oils on the growth of both mycelial and yeast forms of five clinical isolates of Candida albicans, a causative microorganism of oral thrush. We assessed the effect of each oil in concentrations of 0.078%, 0.156%, and 0.313% on growth of the mycelial forms of the clinical isolates over 24 hr using the crystal violet method. We also evaluated the effect of each oil on growth of the yeast forms by counting the number of viable yeast cells after culturing in the oils for 24 hr. Sesame oil inhibited the growth of both mycelial and yeast forms. Safflower and olive oil also inhibited the growth of both forms of C. albicans but to a lesser extent than sesame oil. The ability to inhibit the growth of the mycelial form correlated with sesame oil concentration. Roasting influenced growth inhibition ability and high-roasted sesame oil most effectively inhibited the yeast form. The growth inhibitory effect differed among the five isolates. We hypothesize that the sesamin and fatty acid components of sesame oil are involved in its antifungal activity."
Effect of oil pulling on plaque induced gingivitis: a randomized, controlled, triple-blind study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19336860
"The aim of this study was to evaluate the effect of oil pulling with sesame oil on plaque-induced gingivitis and to compare its efficacy with chlorhexidine mouthwash.
RESULTS:
There was a statistically significant reduction of the pre- and post-values of the plaque and modified gingival index scores in both the study and control groups (P < 0.001 in both). There was a considerable reduction in the total colony count of aerobic microorganisms present in both the groups.
CONCLUSION:
The oil pulling therapy showed a reduction in the plaque index, modified gingival scores, and total colony count of aerobic microorganisms in the plaque of adolescents with plaque-induced gingivitis."
During oil swishing in the mouth there is a process of oil saponification (= basically oil changes into soap), which helps to collect other the pathogenic microorganism, see:
Mechanism of oil-pulling therapy - in vitro study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21525674
"Sesamin and sesamolin isolated from sesame oil did not have any antibacterial effect against oral microorganisms like Streptococcus mutans, Streptococcus mitis and Streptococcus viridans. Emulsification of sesame oil occurs during oil-pulling therapy. Increased consumption of NaOH in titration is a definite indication of a possible saponification process.
Conclusion: The myth that the effect of oil-pulling therapy on oral health was just a placebo effect has been broken and there are clear indications of possible saponification and emulsification process, which enhances its mechanical cleaning action."
Another positive effect of oil pulling is vagal stimulation, see Dr. Ayers on that:
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2009/09/vagus-nerve-controls-gut-inflammation.html?showComment=1253777477152#c7326993988039911134
elliebellie
ReplyDeleteYUMMMM~!!!! THX for your delish GBF recipe! Doesn't it taste like spelt? I luv these kind of recipes (too much, can't stop lol).
Baked goods with GBF, green banana flour, have about 17-18% RS3. So 1/2 cup flour = 17 to 18 grams RS3
Gemma!
You're so disciplined! I get so bored oil pulling, so I don't do often as should for benefits. Thank you for pulling (pun) all the relevant studies.
I had no idea the improvements for reducing candida overgrowths and how strong the evidence is. INCREDIBLE!!! Well your gut-brain axis definitely is a good example of oil pulling benefits.
Re: the function and structure of the intestinal mucosal barrier -Vitamin A is important for gut immunity, and depending on B-carotene conversion ability, and insufficient intakes of Vitamin D and K, it's possible that the decreased ability to regulate intestinal microbes via gut immune cells is due to inadequate Vitamin A status. I remember someone cured their acne by balancing Vitamin A, D, and K . . it probably plays a part.
ReplyDeleteRe: the fermented veg and cancer connection, I have a somewhat related anecdote. I no longer tolerate lactobacilli fermented foods such as sauerkraut and yogurt. They make me extremely exhausted and give me nightmares. My gut function is not good though, so the mediating factor in this association is likely that some damaged guts are unable to tolerate these foods.
Dr. BG, I experience the same craving for small sour apples! I've had this craving since childhood, when I first tried one from someone's wild apple tree . . I could never find them anywhere though, and even organic apples are too sweet for me, though some people call these varieties sour. Do you know the name of the apple?
Hey Anon~
ReplyDeleteYes they are so nice!! I love the acidity and balanced with mild sweetness. They just keep me powered. The pectin and insoluble fibers aren't bad either! No need for powders, potions or pills with it.
These are the organic gala ones at all the markets all of a sudden. Don't know how long season is, probably not long!
Joanne Slavin is a doc who warns the same about stomach cancer and fermented foods. However I don't think she drills down the likelihood of nitrates in faux fermented foods... are they really fermenting the foods??! In China I found hardly any real microbially fermented foods -- only in the outback and rural geographies.
It's just too easy. Add cheap industrial vinegar and nitrates..... In China preserved meats, duck, and sausages are favored. Again, all nitrates and chemicals.
In Africa the rates of gastric and bowel cancers are very very LOW. The traditional villages still fermented a ton -- almost everything -- breads, oats, millet, amaranth, alcoholic beverages, beans, etc. So this contradicts some of the fear-driven findings (and likely falsely linked to true, ancestrally prepared fermented foods).
In the northern areas of Asia and Japan, they do consume a large amount of high GI white rice. I do wonder if this may be a confounding factor. Some say sodium is an additional factor. Perhaps the quality of the salt has changed from unrefined, mineral rich sea salt to industrially processed NaCl refined 'salt'?
I find this hard to believe but:
ReplyDeleteHere is another study on prostate cancer. Just a spoonful of picked vegetables a day leads to a 10 fold increase in the rate of prostate cancer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2409746/
Anon
ReplyDeleteThanks for the nature link. The researchers report is is likely the composition of the mycotoxins found in high-incidence areas: "Roussin red methyl ester, a non-alkylating nitroso compound with promoting effect in vitro, has been identified in pickled vegetables samples from Linxian in much higher concentrations than in samples from a low-incidence areas (Cheng et al, 1981; Zhang et al, 1983). Fumonisin mycotoxins have been shown to cause liver and kidney tumours in rodents (Kamangar et al, 2009). Furthermore, a synergistic interaction between mouldy food and N-nitroso compounds has been reported (Yang, 1980)."
There is a distinct subpopulation which has difficulty metabolizing or eliminating mycotoxins, perhaps these are the ones most affected?
Raw honey (if you are lucky to find these days!) which appears neutralizes mycotoxins -- this study in rodents showed honey feeding reduced liver and kidney organ damage and genotoxic effects of aflatoxin, but no ochratoxin. Bifidobacteria and lactobacilli increased as well.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16533410
At the Fermentation Festival in Santa Rosa Valley, one person was telling me she used to live at a house where the kitchen was all laminate cabinetry (fake pseudo-wood, like all tract houses now and IKEA-nation). SHE COULD NOT GROW HER BOOCH! Her kombucha refused to grow. SOmehow the microbes in the environment restricted or limited growth of her scoby but after she moved out of that kitchen, then growth and the booch were fine.
WOW ur full of cancer and fermented cheer today lol~!!
ReplyDeleteAgain that was a modern China city study and being in even rural areas in China, they are probably all non-fermented products -- I couldn't tell from the article. To call them fermented is kinda an atrocity (not unlike Trader Joe's or Safeway). These are vinegar brined, MSG laden and NaCl sterilized junk food packed in preservatives, nitrites and in plastic.
These were the listed pickled vegs
Pickled vegetables Fresh salted bok choy, salted mustard greens, salted bamboo stalk (dry), pickled radish, fermented amaranth peduncle, chowchow, gherkin
Nitrite level of pickled vegetables in Northeast China -- 'low levels'
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956713512003027
Here is actually naturally fermented napa cabbage, SCARY? Nitrosamines are formed with meat as well in our guts. To decrease toxicity, our gut needs to ferment fiber and resistant starch all the way to the end of the colon. Perhaps the chinese white rice diet (not much RS) deviates from more ancestral whole grains, fermented grains, tubers and legumes??
-- "The research presented in this paper showed that during the pickle processing, the peak content of nitrite that formed far exceeded the limit value of the nitrite content recommended by the World Health Organization."
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-4549.2008.00291.x/abstract
Even vegetarian sources of protein may cause toxic by products. Vegetarians are still at risk for colon cancer, etc.
ReplyDeletewhat is key I believe is the composition of the gut and what the gut is fed -- is there enuf saccharolytic (fiber) fermentation? Does it occur completely across the entire colon?
The study below showed a dose-dependent quenching of reactive protein by products which are fecal carcinogens (even for vegetarians) by oligosaccharides/inulin. Inulin is part of version B bionic fiber.
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html
"Our results confirmed a clear dose-dependent stimulation of saccharolytic fermentation. Importantly, a significant decrease in toxic protein fermentation metabolites such as sulphides attended these effects."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20568238
For cancer, I track two markers because these are elevated in pre-cancerous and cancer states:
1) lipid peroxides
2) 8OHdg
Dr. BG,
ReplyDeleteThanks again for responding on the cancer risk and providing color on what might be going on here. I found that the raw honey info was very interesting. My wife has some raw honey. I just went over and sampled them. I try to stay low carb, but that study shows they have incredible benefits. The long lived people in Ikeria use lots of raw honey.
Maybe the Chinese pickles have many problems but what about the studies that show problems with kimchi. Is Kimchi often loaded with junk?
Anon,
ReplyDeleteYou must be careful about raw honey. There has been big scams over the last decade for fakes (from China no less, including even so called 'organic' labelled ones).
I love kim chee however it doesn't agree with my gut. It turns out cayenne and hot spices can increase intestinal permeability. For some, this is no problem. They have no issues with a little laxness in selective permeability. However for those with the wrong gut bugs, and overgrowths of renegades making havoc and consequently compromising permeability, I'd kinda advise staying away from a ton of cayenne (incl 'master cleanses') and hot spices temporarily.
J Nutr. 1998 Mar;128(3):577-81.
Hot spices influence permeability of human intestinal epithelial monolayers.
Jensen-Jarolim E1 et al
Indirect evidence suggests that hot spices may interact with epithelial cells of the gastrointestinal tract to modulate their transport properties. Using HCT-8 cells, a cell line from a human ileocoecal carcinoma, we studied the effects of spices on transepithelial electrical resistance (TER), permeability for fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC)-labeled dextrans with graded molecular weight, and morphological alterations of tight junctions by immunofluorescence using an anti-ZO-1 antibody, a marker for tight junction integrity. Two different reactivity patterns were observed: paprika and cayenne pepper significantly decreased the TER and increased permeability for 10-, 20- and 40-kDa dextrans but not for -70 kDa dextrans. Simultaneously, tight junctions exhibited a discontinuous pattern. Applying extracts from black or green pepper, bay leaf or nutmeg increased the TER and macromolecular permeability remained low. Immunofluorescence ZO-1 staining was preserved. In accordance with the above findings, capsaicin transiently reduced resistance and piperine increased resistance, making them candidates for causing the effects seen with crude spice extracts. The observation that Solanaceae spices (paprika, cayenne pepper) increase permeability for ions and macromolecules might be of pathophysiological importance, particularly with respect to food allergy and intolerance.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=9482766
Do you make your own sauerkraut (and not worry about the endog nitrites)? We add a lot of garlic to ours -- garlic is fantastic to amplify the growths of the immunoprotective (thus anti-cancer) Lactobacillus plantarum.
L plantarum and other probiotics help our bodies to detoxify mycotoxins. They have been used for centuries (if not millenia) to ferment grains and legumes to neutralize antinutrients and increase bioavailability of minerals, vitamins, protein content, digestibility and up the resistant starch lol.
Mycotoxin Res. 2006 Dec;22(4):230-5. doi: 10.1007/BF02946747.
Detoxification of mycotoxins by probiotic preparation for broiler chickens.
Biernasiak J1, et al
Biological decontamination of mycotoxins using microorganisms is one of the well known strategies for the management of mycotoxins in foods and feeds. Among the different potential decontaminating microorganisms,Saccharomyces cerevisiae and lactic acid bacteria represent unique groups, which are widely used in food fermentation and preservation. The aim of this study was to determine the influence of spontaneous fermentation with the use of probiotic bacteria and yeast (Lactobacillus paracasei/casei ŁOCK 0920,L. brevis ŁOCK 0944,L. plantarum ŁOCK 0945,Saccharomyces cerevisiae ŁOCK 0142), on reduction of sum of aflatoxines (B1, B2, G1, G2) and ochratoxin A concentration during fermentation and the microflora pattern during fermentaton. The probiotic bacteria and yeast applied creates a starter culture for flour fermentation that has a stable feature of detoxication of aflatoxines and especially ochratoxin A.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23605714
As I sit here and drink my wild Greek mountain tea with Trader Joes Raw Honey from Mexico, I appreciate you for your open mind.
ReplyDeleteGood point on the spice and adding Garlic for it's protective benefit.
I think this Cancer/Fermented/Pickled connection and how to avoid it would be a great topic for a future blog post.
Thanks again
Cheers to u [holding up my glass of 'booch]!!
ReplyDeleteCheers to you.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, does unpasteurized honey have the same protective benefit as raw honey?
@Grace
ReplyDeleteThat is interesting that the Masala Powder includes ground mung beans? Is that ok to consume raw and unsoaked?
The Masala is generally used in cooking, especially in steamed food, so it is not consumed Raw. However, raw Mung beans is likely to contain RS and is known to contain Soluble and Insoluble fiber and is eaten Raw when Sprouted (in salads). When used in the Fenugreek Pickle recipe, the Ground Mung Bean does get soaked and incorporated into the final product which does possibly ferment during the 5 days exposure to a hot environment as required in the method for preparation.
Gelatin and Polyphenols
So glucuronic and acetic acid from fermented foods may work too? LIke chutneys? Fermented polyphenol foods + bone, gelatin broths are good gut combinations.
YES to above.
The function of the Acetic acid in the Vinegar is basically to act as a solvent for the Polyphenol/Gelatin reaction to take place but more importantly to provide a means to hydrolyse the Polyphenol to the Free Phenolic acid which can the react and combine with Proteins to make the complex. Our Chosen Protein in this case is Gelatin. It can easily be Casein from Milk. The majority of Polyphenols in plants exist as glycosides with different sugar units attached to the Phenolic acid. Phenolic acids can only be freed or hydrolyzed upon acid or alkaline hydrolysis, or by enzymes.
So, if you provide Acidic conditions , as in Chutneys and pickle (via Acetic acid or Citric acid), the Polyphenol is likely to break up into the Sugar and Phenolic acid. This Phenolic acid is very reactive and may combine with proteins , particularly proteins containing the Amino acid PROLINE. (Gelatin, Casein, Salivary Proteins). This means that when you make Bone broth (which contains Collagen/Gelatin) , add some sort of Acidic ingredient and Herbs/spices containing Polyphenols (say Basil , Thyme, Oregano, Sage, Turmeric, etc) you are likely to end up with "Gealtine Tannate" or a complex made up of Gelatin and the Polyphenlic acids found in your Chosen Herb/Spice. The Complex is preety week and held by hydrogen bonds, but is Stable in acidic ph, which means it will remain intact in the Stomach. When the complex enters the alkaline environment of the small Intestine, it does break up into the Phenolic acid and Gelatin. These agents may then proceed towards the Cecum and Colon where the beneficial effects are observed, although when used to treat Diarrhoea and Inflammation, it works in the small intestine as well. The mechanism of action is not known but it is possible that the reactive Phenolic acids complex with pro-inflammatory cytokines in the bowel or perhaps suppress the growth of certain microbes. In any case, they work to reduce intestinal inflammation induced by Bacteria.
@T-Nat
ReplyDelete"Polyphenols in medicinal foods like Turmeric, Indian Gooseberry (Amla), Pomegranate Seeds and Peal, Neem leaves and Bark are mostly Tannins."
Are you suggesting that taking these foods raw (ex. turmeric powder in some coconut oil) is not going to give you the max benefit or no benefit at all -because it is mostly tannins? What about the polyphenols in fenugreek then? Should they be soaked in Apple Cider Vinegar before consuming as well? Is mixing with gelatin absolutely necessary? Sorry for all the questions but if I am to take these herbs and suffer thru the unpleasant taste, I better get the max mileage out of them, right?
I think we should try and consume Polyphenolic Herbs and spices in doses and ways they have historically been consumed by our forefathers(and mothers!). That is, in cooking. As mentioned before, the Polyphenols become bio-available after they have been hydrolysed. This is achieved by acid, alkaline or enzymic action and also heat (cooking). Some Polyphenols are Oil soluble (as in Curcumin in Turmeric) and needs to be take with oil.
It is NOT necessary to take Polyphenols with Gelatin. However, the idea of taking it with Gelatin or milk (Casein) or complexed with either of these is to TARGET the active principles to where you want them to do their business. My belief is that the Benefits of Polyphenols are obtained from the metabolites produced from their fermentation by Gut microbes. this Fermentation can only take place in the Itestines, Cecum and Colon. Thus, the idea of TARGETTING these organs for the delivery of the Polyphenols. This is achieved because the Polyphenol/Gelatin complex or the Polyphenol/Casein complex is stable in the acidic ph of the stomach but does break up in into Gelatin/Casein and the Phenolic acin on the Alkaline ph of the intestine. These reactions do happen naturally during cooking and eating, but if you are trying to treat inflammation in the Gut, it is nice to know that the agent in question has reached it's target.
@T-Nat,
ReplyDeleteAshwin, appreciate if you could share the approximate ratio of all these fibers in your mix.
My Prebiotic fibre mix:
Potato Starch...................................20G
Gum Arabic.......................................5G
Psyllium Husk...................................5G
Guar Gum..........................................5G
Germinated Barley Food...................5G
Glucomannan (Konjac).....................5G
Inulin................................................1G
Fructooligosaccharide.....................1G
Galactooligosaccharide...................1G
Pectin...............................................1G
to this mix I add One tablespoonful of Wheat Bran , Ginger and Polyphenol mix during processing.
This formula has been arrived at by trial and error and is only a guide. It may not be suitable for everyone due to the Fibre content of daily diet changing the parameters in individual cases.
@Anonymous,
ReplyDelete"You can easily make a complex of any Polyphenol Herb/Spice by adding the whole spice to Gelatin softened in some Distilled or Wine Vinegar (a source of Acetic Acid) and blending for the “reaction” to take place. You can use the resulting mix or allow the vinegar to evaporate to obtain the powder complex!"
Would you mind giving a little more information on how much vinegar to herb/spice. How long you leave it for, and how you evaporate it. Is it simply pouring a little into a shallow tray?
As mentioned above, Acetic acid from vinegar is required to Hydrolyse the Polyphenol into the Phenolic acid and sugar moiety. Therefore the amount of vinegar depends on how much polyphenol is used. Generally I use enough to cover the powder or perhaps help dissolve it. heat is often required, but it is safer to use a hot water-bath to heat the mixture in a separate container(preferably glass as in Pyrex) . I use more Gelatin than Polyphenol to make sure most of the Polyphenol has reacted. I leave the mixture in a shallow dish in my conservatory to dry naturally . leaves me with fine film which I scrap off and grind for later use.
@Ashwin Patel, you said
ReplyDelete"I think we all agree that Resistant starch and Potato Starch in particular is good Colon food, however it is NOT a prebiotic. This means it has the potential to feed all the microbes that have made a home in your intestines/colon. This situation is not desirable, especially for someone who may be contemplating taking Raw Potato Starch to modulate the Gut Microbiome in a positive direction to treat or prevent a medical condition. If you already suffer from an auto-immune condition where microbes may be a contributory factor, you are bound to be carrying the Bad bugs responsible (Crohn’s, Ankylosing Spondylitis, MS,etc). You do not want these to multiply wildly and make a home in your Gut!!"
So if someone had autoimmune symptoms or already had an autoimmune disease, what would they take other than RS then to help them. Would it still be safe for them to take RS3 from actual food? Sbo probiotics? Thanks.
Hi Grace,
ReplyDeleteI've got a somewhat random allergy question for you. First thing is I've identified a definite histamine intolerance issue. Second is that I've come across Quercitin as a recommended supplement to help while my gut heals. Any thoughts on Quercitin for histamine intolerance?
Thanks!
Hi Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the reply. Amazing that your friend with Crohns has been symptom free for so long!
So the neem is the first step. And the second step would be adding a probiotic. But would Bifilac be recommended for rheumatic autoimmunity symptoms or would a different probiotic be better?
Greetings Ashwin;
ReplyDeleteIf one had jumped on the RS2 potato starch bandwagon without having first done the "weed and seed" steps, would a flare-up of eczema be a possible result?
Holy Smokes! This is getting good. I'm so glad that everybody is looking at the 'big picture' now.
ReplyDeleteAshwin - Don't ever stop posting!
Grace - Keep oil pulling, don't be lazy!
These comments alone are a good testament that there is a whole world beyond RS2. I think it was Dr BG that coined the term 'foundational fiber' for inulin and RS. I love that term, but love that we are now exploring all the supporting actors in the fiber spectrum.
I always get giddy when I see people's fiber blend smoothies. I cringe when I walk pastthe fiber aisle at Safeway and see just Citrucel and Metamucil.
In fact, I see Citucel now is advertising "Smart Fiber"
"Citrucel with SmartFiber is proven to help restore and maintain regularity, and it’s also the only fiber that won’t ferment, to cause excess gas*. And only Citrucel has SmartFiber."
Tell us more, Jamie Lee Curtis, what is this amazing 'No fart' fiber???
" Our scientists found a way to combine the benefits of a soluble fiber and a non-fermentable fiber to create SmartFiber. Only SmartFiber gives you the fiber benefits you want without causing excess gas*."
Please, tell me more!
"SmartFiber is derived from cellulose"
"SmartFiber is 0% fermentable!"
WOW!!!!! I want some of that!
Gotta love those scientists, they took a crappy fiber (cellulose) and made it EVEN CRAPPIER!
Later,
Tim
Tim
ReplyDeleteLUV UR MR TIGERNUT AVATAR!! UR AN ANCIENT GUT GOD!! lol
You'd be so proud. I just oil pulled before cooking dinner! Did I mimic the genius? Thank you for generously sharing all of your oral and gut health epic knowledge!
I had heard about oil pulling but your personal story for totally reversing all the periodontal gum stuff and making your dentist DROOL over your healthy pink gums was totally enviable.
Your persistent and deep commitment to opening the discussion on using RS2 as a tool to rapidly fast tract the microbiota, really triggered huge changes in thinking. And we both quickly realized it was just the tip of the iceberg! You've created monsters
I hope many others share their 'fave fiber' smoothie and bionic blends! So impressive, no? And with advanced lab testing for urine organic acids (tells what's breaching into blood/urine from gut which is a 'closed system') and the stool genus and species (GDX, biohealth, Doctor's Data, Great Smokies, Great Plains, etc) detailed and comprehensive manipulation of the microbiota is possible for anyone.
Eddie and I have overcome what few have done successfully so I hope we can expand more later:
--overcame overwhelming candida
--decreased parasites and pathogenic bacteria
--recovered health, fatigue, fogginess by targeting the gut, the root of all diseases
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteI concur on all of your points. Are we twins? I think I was Indian in a prior life!
Lee's work he summarized what is 'missing' and what's 'overgrowing'. For IBD, as you accurately point out, the missing species are the inulin-eaters (except Clostridia, likes RS). The one's overgrowing: RS- or sugar-eaters.
For IBD:
high
Sulphate-reducing bacteria, Escherichia coli
low
Clostridia XIVa, IV (F. prausnitzii) groups, Bacteroides, Bifidobacteria (mostly inulin eaters)
For Crohn's:
high
Bacteroides, Enterobacteria, Escherichia coli, Klebsiella pneumonia, Streptococcus viridans (RS and starch eaters)
low
Bifidobacteria, Lactobacilli (inulin eaters)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034294/
Awebb,
ReplyDeleteQuercetin is awesome for histamine reduction by stabilize the immune cells that release, mast cells. It's found in apple skins -- hence if you can eat a few small tiny organic apples and chew the skins thoroughly (like 20-25 times!) then it can be released.
Your gut is broken... often candida is implicated.
What can also lower histamine are
--B spectrum (Thorne's basic B complex)
--Any bifidobacterium, nearly all lower histamine
--L plantarum
--L rhamnosus
--Prescript Assist SBO because it contains Bacteroides which are functionally similar to B fragilis, a histamine lowering strain
Please let me know what works
Anon,
ReplyDeleteThe 7 steps is very effective for autoimmunity (as long as you don't have masssive overgrowths of RS eaters)
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html
Here are two autoimmunity success stories including normalization of autoantibodies
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/01/two-c-elegans-articles-and-two-success.html
Here's my drink these days:
ReplyDelete1 scoop Amazing Greens High ORAC powder
1 scoop Larch Arabinogalactan
1 scoop Acacia Gum
1 scoop Inulin/FOS
1 or 2 scoop of either potato starch or Banana Flour
1 scoop Probiota Immune (GOS)
a smidge of Pectin
a smidge of Glucomannan
sometimes I add some bee pollen and a little yoghurt
sometimes I add a scoop of Amla powder
I take this with one of the following probiotics (alternating)
Advanced Research Probiotics3 (aka AOR3)
Prescript Assist
Primal Defense Ultra
and sometimes some L. Plantarum
and eat a lot of onions and ginger.
Regina
Queen Regina~ VERY NICE! Ginger has got quite a BITE. You and Ashwin can take the heat!!
DeleteAshwin,
ReplyDeleteI love your childhood neem stories, I can see how you are so entranced with it! "Growing up in East Africa we used twigs from the Neem tree as our toothbrush! I remember chewing on these sticks every morning in the back Garden"
I'm glad you approve of Triphala. I haven't had a chance to try but have wanted to a couple of years ago. I need to ck out Chyavanprash. SOUNDS HEAVENLY for guts and minds! People may also buy here, iherb ships internationally:
http://www.iherb.com/Himalaya-Herbal-Healthcare-Organic-Chyavanprash-with-Organic-Forest-Honey-17-63-oz-500-g/3697
For the ellagic acid glyercin-of-tannate, did you just use concentrated pomegranate juice like the below (organic)
http://www.iherb.com/North-American-Herb-Spice-Co-PomaMax-Mountain-Grown-Mediterranean-Pomegranate-Concentrate-12-fl-oz-355-ml/10390
That is a fantastic formula!
I appreciate all of your generous thoughts here and taking the time to discuss these important topics. I hope you feel more comfortable here.
For a while I've been a fan of Prunus mume, Japanese plums, and wrote about it. My parents love it too. My stepmom pickles it now every year! I didn't know its activity included Klebsiella. It is also antifungal which is helpful in the modern age of antibiotics.
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2010/08/zoopharmacognosy-animals-eat-medicinal.html
Thank you for the Healing SPICES book rec! Sounds wonderful. I'll ck it out. Gemma was telling me about silymarin seeds, for liver. I take it in a supplement but should consider actually seeds too (and their prebiotic activity).
Regarding C butyricum, LUV LUV LUV this strain. It is a human commensal but missing in those after antibiotics or very ill. It recovers butyric acid production and is a vital part of the ancestral core. There are several excellent and compelling anti-cancer animal studies with it.
Anon,
"By the way, does unpasteurized honey have the same protective benefit as raw honey?" Do you mean the 'filtered' honey? Like a lot of raw mead, hard cider and organic wines, producers filter the microbes out to maintain the taste and increase shelf life. Unfortunately the remove the ancestral probiotics! For honey, that could be as well. Pasteurization not only sterilizes the microbes but likely inactivates all the heat-labile antioxidants and special molecules.
You know, to put it in perspective, us 'arguing' about RS2 vs RS3 is like rocket scientists arguing about solid propellants vs liquid propellants.
ReplyDeleteI think it is amazing that we are discussing the actual fermentation site of different prebiotics and the microbes they benefit 2 or 3 steps down the food chain.
The general population is still searching for that magical 'fart free' probiotic, the mystical 0% fermentable type. lol
Yes, good job oil pulling. I find that doing it will making dinner puts an abrupt end to sampling the food as you cook!
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteIf one had jumped on the RS2 potato starch bandwagon without having first done the "weed and seed" steps, would a flare-up of eczema be a possible result?
I think YES. And possibly a flare up of other Autoimmune conditions.
You have to ask yourself why we are taking RS2 Potato starch. The intention in all cases is to modulate the composition of the microbiota throughout the various Gut segments.
We are just rushing into the process without too much thought.
When I mentioned this fact on freetheanimal, I was told most people who took RS were healthy anyway. If you were already healthy you probably would not Get a flare up but if you were Genetically susceptible for an Autoimmune condition , this may be the time it is triggered. After all, you are altering the composition of the microbiome and may be causing an unintentional DYSBIOSIS. I think the opposite may be true. Most people who supplement on anything are trying to cure a condition!
Gut microbiota is linked with eczema. Any one suffering from Eczema is likely to have a Dysbiosis and by introducing the RS2 it is possible to make matters worse by feeding causative microbes via the metabolites produced from fermentation. We tend to connect
L.Plantarum with Eczema cures, so this microbe may be making metabolites that may be directly helpful or may work by further modulating the composition of the Gut Flora. If the L.Plantarum is missing or present in minute amounts, other bugs have possibly replaced it. What I am trying to convey is that Step one should be to take control of the Dysbiosis before RS introduction.Perhaps another important factor to address may be increased intestinal permeability or inflammation before introducing any prebiotics. If the gut lining is leaky then exposing it to more fermentation products will only mean their entry into the bloodstream.
@Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteSo the neem is the first step. And the second step would be adding a probiotic. But would Bifilac be recommended for rheumatic autoimmunity symptoms or would a different probiotic be better?
The idea is to cure DYSBIOSIS and create EUBIOSIS by introducing a variety of SCFA producing bugs, so if step one has been accomplished it should not matter. What we are doing by introducing different probiotics in reality is introducing different GENES and so ENZYME systems into the Gut to handle the Fermentable fibres that are to follow. Ideally these Enzyme systems should produce metabolites by converting dietary material(fibre, Polyphenols, etc)that arrives into the Intestines, Cecum, Colon into beneficial chemicals which may work as Signalling molecules, Anti-microbials, etc.
For those interested, from gut researcher DR Stig Bengmark, his fiber/RS concoction is equal parts of the below:
ReplyDeletepectin
FOS
inulin
resistant starch
With probiotics L plantarum and L paracasei
Tim,
ReplyDeleteCan't snack or drink wine during cooking -- yes you're totally right! The 'buzz' or 'twitching' for food totally and completely died (but it could've been the 5 mile jog which lowers my appetite too). Seth Roberts theory about smell and altering the set point for weight loss may not include strong tasting (NASTY) roasted sesame oil from oil pulling!!
"The general population is still searching for that magical 'fart free' probiotic, the mystical 0% fermentable type. lol" Your statement is pretty funny. I'd love to have Jaime Lee Curtis tell me more how I can pay and buy basically unfermentable cardboard for my gut!
Thank you for bringing RS to limelight! It is one of the GREATEST GIFTS that you gave to our collective guts.
"I think it is amazing that we are discussing the actual fermentation site of different prebiotics and the microbes they benefit 2 or 3 steps down the food chain." I think sophisticated discussions are starting to begin. Most people had excellent 'gut feelings' that starches should not be banned forever. I'm glad to see both benefits and the not-so-benefits to different variants of our human diets because it shows how unique and special each person is. We can't fool evolution!
My kids and I are apo E2/E3. My ancestors were highly likely to be grain-adapted. We can eat more carbs than say an apo E4/E4 or apo E3/E3. Our guts and subsequent metabolism are built that way apparently.
Ashwin,
ReplyDelete"Any one suffering from Eczema is likely to have a Dysbiosis and by introducing the RS2 it is possible to make matters worse by feeding causative microbes via the metabolites produced from fermentation. We tend to connect L.Plantarum with Eczema cures, so this microbe may be making metabolites that may be directly helpful or may work by further modulating the composition of the Gut Flora. "
Most people don't even understand RS2 v RS3. L plantarum eats no RS2. However for RS3, cooked starches that contain RS3 will also contain digestible starch which L plantarum can eat, or its breakdown products. Therefore if FODMAP and starch intolerance do not exist, then consuming RS3 will improve the lactobacilli populations by the feeding of starch.
Not everyone needs weeding -- and the degree of weeding needs to be weighed with the actual composition. Just like high dose RS2 feeding may harm delicate and rare populations, weeding can further knock down tender populations that are part of the ancestral core, that we cannot afford to lose or worse make extinct.
High dose RS2 has many problems. It was obvious from the beginning but I think many cannot appreciate these sophisticated discussions now because the collaborative action of the gut members and their vital inter-reliability and inter-dependence are not valued. The gut members are a 'team'. There are no rogues or stars. If one member becomes extinct, many others will follow because humans are no connected to unlimited sources of 'new replacement' bugs.
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteI am very curious to hear more of your thoughts on yeast! Sounds like neem is an excellent shield.
The fungi among us is an enormous problem particularly because the western world is a post-antibiotic apocalypse and the guts, yeast overgrowths as a consequence. Many of the those with insurmountable sugar/carb cravings or who have psychotic/paranoid delusions are yeasty-human hybrids with the fungi winning.
Our pal Eddie said it quite poignantly: "yeast also fight for the RS source like to dogs in a room toss a steak who will get it??? THE BIGGER DOG"
I wonder how many new yeasty monsters have been created with high-dose RS2?
My feeling is most people are not aware if they have the yeasts or not because it thrives outside the gut and signs/symptoms for many are SUPER SUBTLE. Dandruff, skin issues (anything), anxiety and psychotic signs are the most obvious bioindicators to me. Thoughts?
Currently testing may reveal in stool but these aren't enough. On stool, it won't tell the organs that the fungi has translocated to and 'infected' (like the brain).
The more 'gold standard' for me is urine testing. Yeasts are found overgrowing in almost every modern condition -- mental, degenerative joint/RA, every autoimmune disorder, allergies, food intolerances, CFS, and autism.
Functional lab testing, Arabinose:
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/candida.asp
Very basic, not complete and no functional medicine:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/candida/#axzz3EEySTft7
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteHUGE HUGE thanks to you for the enormous amounts of great information you are sharing here. I would just echo Tim and Grace's request to please don't ever stop posting here. We greatly appreciate your efforts in taking this discussion to a whole new level.
I got a ton of catch up reading to do here but
Please keep them coming.
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteWhat fermented foods did you enjoy as a child? Which do you have access to or make now besides the fermented chickpeas? In Asia there are many regional ones but they are time consuming to make. Most families don't make. Fermented black beans (rich in Bacillus licheniformis and subtilis) cannot even be bought in Shanghai -- I tried! My ayi said she had to go back to the Fujian countryside to get for me lol. It is pretty messed up... I love the resurgence in kraut and kombucha, but we are still missing the fermented foods that have the carnivorous microbes, which prefer the seafood (fish sauce) and legumes' fat and protein (eg naturally fermented and aged soy sauce).
North East India microbes and fermented foods:
http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/13415/1/IJTK%2011(1)%207-25.pdf
I read this article a while ago delving into AMPK, PPAR and curcumin. These foods have been around for millenia -- many are roots like curcumin.
http://hcc.musc.edu/object_includes/archive/research/programs/prevention/journalarticles/June%20Journal%20Club%20Article.pdf:
Epigenetic impact of dietary polyphenols in cancer chemoprevention
Identification of Novel Anti-inflammatory Agents from Ayurvedic Medicine for Prevention of Chronic Diseases: “Reverse Pharmacology” and “Bedside to Bench” Approach
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170500/pdf/nihms307509.pdf
T-Nat
ReplyDeleteYes, let's keep Ashwin here and happy ;)
Does the NE India article look familiar? Please chime in!!
Ashwin,
Tim has a superior gut in many respects much perhaps probably like yours, growing up in a rural geography. His family were farmers (though use of pesticides). He had a normal birth and exceptional breastfeeding (mom superhealthy). His damage occurred with years of cipro in the military. But returning to farming roots (pun) and soil exposures, fermented foods and an appropriately low refined carb diet, he made huge and miraculous strides in health.
He has been 'weeding' his gut for years with both alcohol extracts and teas (water, aqueous extracts) of potent Alaskan chaga -- great tannins I believe!! It is also very antifungal, antiparasitic and antimicrobial. He has fantastic soil, mud and manure exposures. His favorite compost is home made and a bat poop (guano) one. His chickens produce eggs covered in chicken poo!
Urbanites cannot have easy access to these awesome and fantastic ancestral 'probiotics' from the environment and healthy farm animals. It is difficult to bridge, and might be the greatest failure of technology and our progressive advances in civilization. Are you an urbanite? Thoughts?
@Dr. B G
ReplyDelete"He has fantastic soil, mud and manure exposures. His favorite compost is home made and a bat poop (guano) one. His chickens produce eggs covered in chicken poo!
Well, you've done it again Dr. B G. I am just now recovering from obsessive re-readings of your "Rugby" article (and quite frankly tired of taking cold showers several times a day) and now you come up with this fermented doozy of a paragraph. Surely what you have done here is create a utopian vision of microbiome heaven with mere words. I will skip my RS2 and RS3 today because your fermented brilliance had fed the good guys in my gut better than mere starch ever could... :-)
In rapt awe,
Anon.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteU CRACK ME DA F*KC UP~!!!
Let's all line up to lick Tim's butt!
okay just kidding -- his gut is low on a few things (bifido? on AmBUTT and uBUTT: low lacto and low Akkermansia -- so we probably need to line up and lick Ashwin's too ;)
My Akkermansia is soaring (because I get too skinny on some days and hypoglycemic on these days). Akkermansia thrives on oligosaccharides and inulin. I think it loves my organic gum acacia (hat tip both Keith Bell and Duckie Dodgers)
Right now when I eat too many desserts (stupid parties), my gut has no resilience (it's such a f*kcer) and goes kaput with high lactobacilli. You can have some of mine!
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteTiny apples are kinda portable and easy right now for me. They contain 'quercetin, catechin, phloridzin and chlorogenic acid".
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/5
Green and ripe bananas have a lot of prebiotics, inulin, RS (green only) antioxidants and polyphenols. When people make 'chips' out of green plantains or bananas, I think they are making a superfood. Also it gives the jaw work.
But pom juice has almost 3-fold more:
http://phenol-explorer.eu/reports/39
"Tropical fruits are the fruits produced in tropical and subtropical countries (Far East, Latin America, Caribbean, Africa). They are called ‘exotic fruits’ in the countries where they are imported. Mango (Mangifera indica L.), banana (Musa sapientum L.), pineapple (Ananas comosus L. Merr.) and papaya (Carica papaya L.) are the dominant tropical varieties produced worldwide. Custard apple (Annona reticulata L.), guava (Psidium guajava L.), kiwi (Actinidia chinensis Planch), lichee (Litchi chinensis L.), longan (Euphorian longana Lam.), loquat (Eriobotrya japonica Lindl.), medlar (Mespilus spp.), passion fruit (Passiflora edulis L.), persimmon (Diospyros kaki L.), pomegranate (Punica granatum L.) and star fruit (Averroha carambola L.) are the other species available in the database.
Total polyphenol contents (Folin assay) in tropical fruits range from 15 mg/100 g in longan to 143 mg/100 g in star fruit. The highest quantities of polyphenols are found in guava (126 mg/100 g), kiwi (116 mg/100 g), loquat (116 mg/100 g) and mango (104 mg/100 g). Among the other major tropical fruits, banana, pineapple and papaya contain respectively 78, 61 and 58 mg/100 g polyphenols. Some juices and more particularly pomegranate juice with a content of 204 mg/100 ml are rich in polyphenols. Lower contents are found in pineapple commercial juice (42 mg/100 ml) and pineapple pure juice (36 mg/100 ml). In pomegranate pure juice, which also contains anthocyanins and ellagic acid derivatives, the gallotannin punicalagin was quantified in high quantities (44 mg/100 ml). Loquat is rich in cinnamic acids and contains 55 mg/100 g 5-caffeoylquinic acid.
Few data exist on the content of individual polyphenols in tropical fruits. Flavanols and proanthocyanidins are the main documented classes, and low values are generally reported for these compounds. The Folin values are much higher than the sum of the contents of individual compounds, most likely due to the lack of data on individual compounds, but also due to the presence of other reducing compounds such as ascorbic acid interfering with the Folin assay. Several phenolic compounds such as procyanidin oligomers and polymers up to heptadecamers, and glycosides of luteolin, quercetin and apigenin have been identified in the date but not quantified (145). In longan seeds, pulp and peel, the major components identified are gallic acid, corilagin (an ellagitannin) and ellagic acid (146). In mango, several gallotannins were identified in kernel, peel and pulp (147, 148), but only small amounts (0.2 mg/g DW) were found in the pulp (147). Guava contains apigenin and myricetin, respectively 58 and 55 mg/100 g DW estimated after hydrolysis (149)."
I have had Rheumatoid Arthritis since 2008. I went the conventional route for about 1 1/2 years or more. I have seen a naturopathic doctor and have taken a butt load of supplements. Have been oil pulling with coconut oil for about 2 years.Started taking PS in January 2014. 8 Tablespoons.Had a flare (but tolerable) in March. I started fermented foods, my own, same time as PS. I did cut back on PS but was doing about 4T up until about 3 weeks ago. Now I only take 1T with my homemade kefir with fruit and coconut oil along with my probiotis and vitamin D. No processed foods,no simple carbs and have always cooked (Indian,Thai etc). I was doing bone broth but when the warmer weather came along I quit. Now that fall is back I will start back up.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I feel like I go in so many directions that I am not sure I can put my finger on anything to say yes I should continue with everything or some is not worth it (supplements). How do I know I am on the right gut path? I have a cabinet and freezer full of spices as that is how I have always cooked. I use turmeric at lunch and had been on KappArest. Oh hell, I could go on and on (I think I just have😉)
Marybeth
ReplyDeleteYEs
ur just spinning
YOu need testing and not shooting blindly in the f*kcing dark. If you want help pls don't hesitate to contact me.
RA is totally treatable but not with conventional medicine. Need target the root causes and fix the root causes. Don't go psycho without knowing exactly what you are dealing w
Hi Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the fabulous information!
Re: helping autoimmunity
"What I am trying to convey is that Step one should be to take control of the Dysbiosis before RS introduction."
"I have used Neem capsules (Himalaya Healthcare) taken in the morning (dose of Two caps) and One BIFILAC HP capsule at bedtime to help a friend who was diagnosed with Crohn’s Disease"
Ashwin,
How long would someone with autoimmune issues have to take the neem and the probiotics before introducing RS?
And is the neem, probiotics and rs stopped at some point or taken indefinitely?
Thank you.
Grace,I would love your help! How do I contact you? I don't take any conventional drugs for my RA.Exercise and food is how I control it.
ReplyDelete@Grace,
ReplyDeleteI agree. Weeding is not required by all. May be we should not be using the term “weeding” at all since it seems to suggest killing off all the weeds (as with Roundup!). However most people who are thinking of modigying the Gut microbiome appear to have some issues that they want to fix and not everyone is aware of their susceptibility to Autoimmune conditions that may have links with the Gut microbiota.
You are right, we do not want to eradicate any known commensal bug. We should aim for a balance. I always look to Ayurveda for my source of Herbs that may help in creating a Balance of microbes in the Gut. I am not a fan of wide spectrum Antibiotics like Rifaximin, Ciprofloxacin or Metronidazole which some “experts” are recommending for “weeding”!.
I find Neem, Turmeric and Amla top of my list for creating a balance in the microbial composition . These are Herbs/spices that have been used as part of the daily diet in India and the East for hundreds of years and have a proven safety record and historical efficacy record. The immune system is well able to decide which bugs are desirable and which ones foreigners if they are not hiding in Biofilms. So, I tend to use Herbs that may break up Biofilms and make the Bugs visible to the immune system. The weak antimicrobial properties reported for some herbals may replace the naturally occurring Defensins- anti-microbial peptides in the Gut that are known to be missing in some medical conditions.
But, you could be right in thinking that Neem may be effective in chronic conditions due to its Anti-fungal properties. That line of thought is very interesting and requires some more reading/research!
Fermented foods/Pickles
My Parents originated from the State of Gujarat in North Western India where Pickles form a very important part of the diet.
As far as I can remember,my mum prepared these pickles. I now live in a small town in Ireland where very little Indian food has been available until recently. I source my favourite, Mango pickle and Gum Berry pickle from London where the rest of my family reside.
Top of the list would be home made Yoghurt.
Pickled Carrots, Cucumber, Green Chili, Mango, Amla, Garlic, Ginger, Onion,Lemonss, Limes, Chick peas+Fenugreek, Fresh Turmeric Root, Green Guar Beans, Gum Berry pickle(Gunda), Ivy Gourd,
Yes, I do believe that a lot of the metabolites produced by microbes from fermentation of
Polyphenols and dietary “fibre” act as signalling molecules and have an epigenetic action on our own Genome.
I grew up in Uganda. Green Bananas and Casava Root were the staples. I really loved these. Boiled Casava, Fried into Chips, curried-great!
Green Bananas –Boiled, Fried, Curried.
I ate all those tropical fruits. How I miis them now. Must plan a visit to Uganda! Sadly, a lot of my Polyphenols come in packets as powders and fruit extracts. Very sad.
Marybeth,
ReplyDeleteThat is truly amazing~!! Clicking on my name presents the email on L.
Ashwin,
What a colorful background! Those foods sound absolutely divine. I bet your immunity was imprinted and secured very well as a child with all those wonderful plant polyphenols, probiotic molecules and soil related organisms!
Bifilac HP is the same as Probiotic-3 AOR I believe
http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-AOR-Advanced-Series-Probiotic-3-Natural-Probiotic-Formula-90-Veggie-Caps/43463
A list of Herbs and spices with microbiota modulating properties
ReplyDeleteLemon Oil
Cloves/ Oil
Oregano Oil
Garlic /Oil
Neem/ Oil
Sage/ Oil
Emblica officinalis/Amla (Long Term Supplement)
Terminalia Chebula (anti-Biofilm)
Cinnamon/ Oil
Tulsi (Holy Basil)/ Oil
Turmeric
Quercetin
Echinacea
Guduchi
Galangin
Anise
Cardamom
Pomegranate seed/ Fruit Peel
Bitter Melon/Karela
Cumin
Fennel
Coriander
Ginger
Bael Fruit/ Aegele marmelos
Shalmali/Silk Cotton tree/Salmalia Malabarica
Nutmeg/Myristica fragrans
Kurchi/Kutaja/Hollarrhena Antidysenterica
Arjuna/Terminalia Arjuna
Wu Mei/Fructus mume/Black Plum
Ashwin -- sorry the HP version has Lactobacillus sporogenes 100 million (aka B coagulans)
ReplyDeleteDid you see how it lowers plaque and S mutans in a human RCT?
http://www.jidonline.com/temp/JInterdiscipDentistry3271-5819907_160959.pdf
Dr. BG
ReplyDeleteI followed your Great Plains link - so useful! Think my 11 yr old daughter has yeast - so many symptoms. Our pediatrician suggested a CDSA but now thinking an OAT would be more informative and useful. I have also heard that a CDSA can miss candida but don't know whether that is valid or not...
Which test would you specifically recommend as there are a few options on their site? Thanks for helping me to navigate all of this, your blog has been immensely helpful!
UR A SMART GORGEOUS COOKIE
ReplyDeleteYes an OAT much more useful. The gut is 'closed' but sadly with leaky gut, many things travel over. The only way to view is to look at blood and thus urine.
None my 4+ yeast ever grew out in culture -- it was the toxic life form. Won't grow. Very misleading if CDSA.
@Anon
ReplyDeleteHow long would someone with autoimmune issues have to take the neem and the probiotics before introducing RS?
And is the neem, probiotics and rs stopped at some point or taken indefinitely?
I can only speak from experience. I gave my friend a small dose of Inulin a year ago and he was not happy. He did not get a flare but suffice it to say he is not a fan of prebiotic supplements generally. He prefers to get his "Fibre" from dietary sources and this appears to be working.
I had Bloating, Heartburn and colicky pain and painful fingers when I first introduced Potato starch.I stopped all fibre supplements for 10 days during which I took one teaspoonful of Neem Leaf Powder steeped in Hot water(made up in the morning and taken at night). I did not filter the "Tea". I drank the whole lot, extract as well as the Leaf residue. This worked well and I can say I am back on the Powders without any "side effects"! I was and still am taking BIFILAC HP and BIOKULT probiotics.
When trying to correct a Dysbiosis that is causing an autoimmune condition the story is different.I have a feeling that Neem is correcting a disability in the Gut that may be Genetically acquired. Maybe it is replacing the functions of natural antimicrobial peptides produced in the gut to keep the Microbiota under control. (Defensins) that are known to be in low amounts in IBD. It might be working as a biofilm buster or may be enhancing the Intestinal mucosal Barrier. (Increased Intestinal permeability in Crohn's patients and also in their relatives who may not have the disease.Indicating that another trigger is needed to precipitate the Disease-Bacteria?)
This means it needs to be taken indefinitley. Same applies for the Probiotics, since Gut colonisation only lasts a few days. Neem is known to have contraceptive properties in both males and females and needs to be withdrawn while trying if one is planning for a baby.
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteWow, that's a long and interesting list. I've been taking Quercetin for years. Worked wonders for minor allergic rhinitis. A quick search revealed studies that showed Quercetin had an inhibitory effect on some specific bacteria? I guess everything we eat, drink, breath, etc. can affect the microbiota. Polyphenols may be a double edged sword and not all may be equal in their ability to shift the intestinal microbiota in the right direction for everyone. Interesting and thanks for that information!
@Ashwin:
ReplyDeleteUnderstanding that no two persons are alike, can you suggest safe/optimal dosage ranges and frequency for average Joe with autoimmune/eczema issues when using the Himalaya brand Neem, Curcumin and Triphala? What might constitute "too much" of these?
Anon,
ReplyDeleteThat's BRILLIANT! "Polyphenols may be a double edged sword and not all may be equal in their ability to shift the intestinal microbiota in the right direction for everyone"
just like resistant starch LOL
(or inulin) lol
ReplyDeleteAshwin,
ReplyDeleteWhat other adverse effects are associated with neem?
Neem oil may be like aspirin in Reye's syndromes in affecting mitochondria permeability. Mitochondria are our 'endosymbiont' bacteria... perhaps this is the MOA, mechanism of action on fast growing pathogenic fungi, parasites, spirochetes and bacteria?
J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1996 Sep;278(3):1000-5.
The mitochondrial permeability transition: a new pathophysiological mechanism for Reye's syndrome and toxic liver injury.
Trost LC1, Lemasters JJ.
Aspirin, Neem oil, valproic, adipic, benzoic, isovaleric, 3-mercaptopropionic and 4-pentenoic acids are implicated in the pathogenesis of Reye's syndrome, Jamaican vomiting sickness, and related chemical toxicities. These disorders are characterized by hyperammonemia, hypoglycemia, microvesicular steatosis and encephalopathy. The goal of this study was to determine whether chemicals implicated in Reye's-related disorders induce the mitochondrial permeability translation (MPT). The MPT is induced by opening of a high-conductance, cyclosporin-sensitive pore in the mitochondrial inner membrane, causing swelling, depolarization and uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation. In freshly isolated rat liver mitochondria, unhydrolyzed aspirin (300 microM) did not induce the MPT in the presence of 50 microM CaCl2. Salicylate, the hydrolysis product of aspirin and its active metabolite, was much more potent causing dose-dependent onset of the MPT in a therapeutic range of concentrations (37.5-300 microM). Similarly, Neem oil and valproic, adipic, benzoic, isovaleric, 3-mercaptopropionic and 4-pentenoic acids induced onset of the MPT. In all cases, cyclosporin A (200 nM), a specific inhibitor of the permeability transition pore, blocked the MPT caused by these inducers. Induction of the MPT by these agents was not caused by mitochondrial depolarization because concentrations of valproic acid and salicylate inducing the MPT had little effect on mitochondrial delta psi. Moreover, equivalent uncoupling caused by 5 nM carbonyl cyanide p-trifluoromethoxyphenylhydrazone did not induce an MPT. These data suggest that induction of the MPT is a common pathophysiological mechanism causing mitochondrial injury in Reye's syndrome and Reye's-related drug toxicities.
Dr. B G,
ReplyDelete"just like resistant starch"
"or inulin"
So true. And probiotics, and ...
I feel like some of us are walking around in the dark, trying to find the one path through the maze that will lead to our own personal prescription for gut health. Like you said above, even the stool tests may not provide the whole picture. I'm starting to agree that things like the OAT test are very useful. If you don't know where you're starting, it's hard to figure out what may work. Trial and error may be an option if you're not in too bad shape. The science is amazing and progressing so rapidly, but it still could be like predicting the weather and never perfect.
Dr. Grace,
ReplyDeleteI just received my UButt results today! (coincidence)
Of course the results confuse me. The quickie top 5 picture is:
Firmicutes - 56.8%
Bacterioidetes - 29.8%
Verrucomicrobia - 3.54%
Actinobacteria - 0.597%
Tenericutes - 0.0697%
I clicked on the Verrucomicrobia and they had no notes. Should I be concerned? It's quite high. I had 3.54% akkermansia. Should I try to lower this Verrucomicrobia? How?
Is there another engine out there I could run my raw data through to learn more what it means?
Thank you very much!!!
Regina
Anon,
ReplyDeleteOf course -- just like PROBIOTICS!
Well it's patterns... once you get familiar, the patterns are recognizable. Later we will better techniques and better technology to know what is going on the gut community. Why a gas (nitrogen, methane, sulfur, hydrogen, etc) is not being consumed. Same with all the volatile SCFA, hippurate, nitrosamines, ammonia, microbial metabolites, etc.
I hope scientists figure which are targeting the host body or are the site of targets for auto-antibodies by the host.
Regina!
ReplyDeleteneato! You need to go to the page where you can view the species and you may download to a comment here.
Akkermansia can be 3-7%. Higher may indicate better glucose and body leanness (not always) so typically it is good.
Dr BG,
ReplyDeleteIf one cant get Bifilac in their country can they order Probiotic 3 instead? I think they are essentially the same thing?
"As mentioned above, Acetic acid from vinegar is required to Hydrolyse the Polyphenol into the Phenolic acid and sugar moiety. Therefore the amount of vinegar depends on how much polyphenol is used. Generally I use enough to cover the powder or perhaps help dissolve it. heat is often required, but it is safer to use a hot water-bath to heat the mixture in a separate container(preferably glass as in Pyrex) . I use more Gelatin than Polyphenol to make sure most of the Polyphenol has reacted. I leave the mixture in a shallow dish in my conservatory to dry naturally . leaves me with fine film which I scrap off and grind for later use."
ReplyDeleteAshwin, thank you for breaking down the polyphenol powder you make.
At the risk of being overly thorough, could you elaborate rough amounts of each, and which herbs you use.
I really want to get this right!
Thank you!!
Thank you Dr. Grace,
ReplyDeleteThere is no button for "Species". I think I clicked everything possible.
Phylum, Class, Order, Family just say Verrucomicrobia. The last tab "Genus" has the longest list of critters. But I am not able to tell which are associate with Verrucomicrobia.
The only things in this list of note that I sortof recognize from your blog is I am low Roseburia and Ruminococcus.
Thank you, Regna
Regina
ReplyDeleteGenus -- that must be it!
Anon,
ReplyDeleteBifilac plain sounds like PRobiotic-3 but appears to have vitamin C and echinacea. Bifilac HP has the additional strain B coagulans.
Ashwin,
ReplyDeleteYour fruit and root smoothie for the gut sounds quite appealing. I found your older recipes from Oct 2012 on your website
content or Floury Potato for best results
One RAW Carrot peeled and diced
One Apple washed and diced (no need to peel)
One Beet Root, diced (not pickled—avoids Vinegar)
One small piece of Ginger root or half a teaspoonful of dried Ginger powder
Half a Lemon (peeled)
Half a Lime (peeled)
Liquidize the ingredients in a food processor. Add water or Fruit juice to thin down into a juice.
Drink one large Glassful daily.
This Raw Vegetable juice will introduce soluble fibre, Insoluble fibre and Resistant Starch
without much effort into your diet and provide the ingredients that will lead to a healthier Colon.
Colon healthy optional extras you can add to the juice to fortify it with other health
providing ingredients.
One tablespoon of Barley malt extract
One tablespoon of Inulin powder
One tablespoon of cracked Flax or Linseeds
One tablespoon of Chia seeds
One teaspoon of Basil seed
One tablespoon of Raw Potato Starch
How did your formula evolve? How is your diet for the fiber spectrum and RS2/3?
I have newfound appreciate for inulin and oligosaccharides as I have been self-studying the immune system and gut microbiota components. The infant gut is colonized by an assembly of core microbiota at birth and the subsequent months thereafter. These are all gut gifts and blessings from mom's channel of life, perineum, skin and breastmilk.
Studies from IBD groups show that many of these strains stay with us forever, and are unique and don't change like a fingerprint. The assembly that colonize the baby within hours and days have many strains that form the skeleton microbiota that condition and train the immune system in the gut:
--Bifidobacteria
--Lactobacilli
--Clostridia
--Bacteroides
All the above eat inulin AND oligos! Much like human milk oligos from mom which has over 200 kinds of different oligos, prebiotics for baby's expanding gut flora.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0101692
Direct Evidence for the Presence of Human Milk Oligosaccharides in the Circulation of Breastfed Infants
July 2014
Though I am the biggest fan of RS, the importance of inulin and oligos I think gets overshadowed. I see you've been using inulin for years now.
My favorite sources of oligos, RFOs, and inulin are:
--onions (purple, white, Vidalia, etc), leeks, green onions, chives, garlic, etc
--soups with the above
--lentils, beans, chana dal
--sunchokes (just discovered at local SPROUT MARKET yay)
--endive (greens of chicory)
--chicory and the Dandy chicory drink
--NOW brand organic inulin
My kids say the inulin tastes like nice like gluten free vanilla cookies lol
This yacon syrup is chock full of inulin and oligos but haven't tried yet.
http://www.iherb.com/North-American-Herb-Spice-Co-Yac-o-Power-33-1-Peruvian-Raw-Yacon-Root-Concentrate-5-fl-oz-150-ml/12932
Thanks for your bionic blends!!
@Grace,
ReplyDeleteRe: Neem advrese side effects, containdications and drug interactions.
please see this link:
http://www.killzrx.com/neem-leaf-extract.pdf
some useful info with refs
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteRe: Polyphenol mix
Amla powder................50G
Turmeric powder............50G
Pomegranate Peel powder....50G
Green Tea Extract..........50G
Grape seed extract.........50G
Quercetin hydrate .........50G
Neem leaf extract....................50G.............Avoid when necessary
Pomegranate Seed Extract....................50G
I use an excess of Gelatin (500G) to make the Complex. My thinking is that this will assure most of the Phenolic Acids made in the vinegar are complexed and there is no wastage.
I use one litre of Vinegar to soak the Polyphenol powders and One litre to soak the Gelatin.
Gently heat the Vinegar/polyphenol mix to liberate the free Phenolic acids by acid hydrolysis. A water bath is ideal to prevent damaging the Polyphenols in any way. The heating can be for up to one hour.
Then add the softened Gelatin and using an electric Blender/whisk, mix well. pour the mix into an airtight glass jar and leave in a dark place for around 3 to 4 days. The reaction is slow and thorough this way. Then you can pour small amounts into a shallow dish ( I use a silicone Baking dish so that the scraping off of the dried powder is easy).
You can grind the final product to a fine powder.
I use 500mg of the blend as the "therapeutic" dose.
Does anyone know what types of fiber predominate in beetroot? I ask because I no longer digest beets at all, and I'm wondering if I have a lack of some type of gut flora or an overgrowth, but I'm not sure which flora beets act as a prebiotic for. (The only info I've found is that carrots and beets share similar fiber types, but I digest carrots just fine.)
ReplyDeleteHey Ashwin!!
ReplyDeletePretty informative! I'd always wondered why Indians soak fenugreek over night and drink it straight up with the water... Figured it's for the wild yeast on it along with host of other benifits you talked about.. Thanks so much.. Also found out that a handful of fenugreek is added while making IDLI or DOSA batter to incorporate wild yeast into the batter to kick start fermentation process..
Thanks for the info. Have you seen this study, love to hear what you think on this
ReplyDeletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/11090392/Why-claims-for-good-bacteria-drinks-may-be-difficult-to-stomach.html
it shows that most probiotics, including best selling align do not cross the acid barrier. Probiotics i'm guessing should be the prime matter for fueling prebiotic RS. Or could we get buy without supplementing. Does the soil based ones really cross the stomach acid, they come also on pill form which renders them death without specific temperature keeping?
Also ive heard that with SIBO, probiotics might actually make you worse, and you have to go on rifaxamin antibiotic and start recolonizing otherwise you will struggle for a long time. This study shows lactobacillus thriving after rixamin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25244596
Does this sound right to you? Thx a lot
'Be HAPPY...and eat onions'
ReplyDeleteFrom Marc's wonderful blog feel good eating.
Anon
Each gut is unique so the points you bring up are excellent and affect a lot of people. For some however it won't. I'm not a big fan of rifaximin because it is so broad spectrum and not antifungal therefore it selects for pathogens parasites and yeasts just as vanco and other potent, synthetic modern pharmaceuticals
Spores from SBO probiotics and the special encapsulation of high quality probiotics bypass the high gastric acidity of the stomach. Thx for your comments!
Thanks so much for the polyphenol mix Ashwin! It really helps to have some idea of quantity.
ReplyDeleteThanks again
Hello there, I just had to make a comment/ask a few questions because this blog is so fascinating. Also, I'm studying for comps and I find that the more I read here the less I am able to study. So for the sake of my passing through the next phase of grad school I'm going to ask a few questions and I apologize if you've addressed them earlier.
ReplyDeleteI find myself constantly on the search for a good diet. After gaining back all the weight I lost in high school for a variety of reasons (stress, hormones, bad eating) I went to an endocrinologist/naturopath whose supplements and suggestions really helped me lose the insomnia and most of the brain fog. My thyroid seems to be functioning better and I deal with stress a million times better than in the past. The doctor is a fan of paleo, but the low carb/high fat just makes me tank and hurts my gall bladder. I do better with medium everything--some protein, some fat, some carbs, etc. Once I added back soaked beans and some grains, the constipation I had went away and I got some energy back. I have had perfect poos for months.
But still, I seem to have some carb intolerance with fruit--it makes me feel like a space cadet--and sweet potatoes/starches. I can't eat dairy, chocolate, tomatoes, and all sorts of other foods because I'll get heartburn. The more I eat in ways that minimize gut distress, the fewer foods I am able to tolerate over time. It's getting a little scary as more and more foods drop off my list.
I decided to try to PS with Primal Defense to see if it would help with the blood sugar crashes I was having after meals. I was still crashing even with matching carbs with proteins and cutting out fruits. For three days I was fine--I even had one day where I ate beans for every meal and barely passed any gas, which seemed amazing. On the fourth day, even though I didn't change the PS dosage (2 tsp), I had some truly monumental diarrhea. I went from perfect poos to liquid poos. I haven't seen undigested food in my stool for a while, and now I can ID everything I've eaten after I poo. It's a bummer because my poo was one of the few things I had going for me healthwise. It's been liquid for three days now and I stopped the PS.
So what does this mean for the old gut? I can eat green bananas and rice and potatoes til the cows come home. Should I never touch the PS again and hope to somehow stumble on a way to control my blood sugar? I want my stomach to work at least once in my life. I know I've got a history of heavy antibiotic use from childhood--probably on antibiotics 3 or 4 times a year for the first 14 years or so because that's just what people did when I was a kid. I've taken all sorts of probiotics, eaten kraut, yogurt, etc., and I am so confused with all the information out there. Sorry this is so long, but I could use some help so that I'm not floundering all over the interwebs while I should be writing for school. Ack! Thanks, love your blog!
Jenners,
ReplyDeleteRead, then go be a good study student ;)
Sounds like the gut is trying to recover. Give it time, start low go slow dealo.
The point of this series is to eat as real whole food as you can and use the supps of prebiotics as tools to fill in the gaps. Taking potato starch alone is probably endangering your floundering and devastated gut. 14 years of antibiotics cannot be trivialized.
The probiotics I believe are mandatory for plebs and suburbanites like you and I. If you can get yourself to an organic, trusted farm, then you can begin better FARMACY more immediately (like Tim Steele). Otherwise, I believe like me your semi-fucked gut need probiotics often or almost weekly/daily.
Submit some kind of testing and let us all weigh in here on this or other threads: Genova diagnostics, Biohealth, ubiome or amgut. I luv your comment. Now be gone and study lol
I'm a little late to the party, so I hope you see this.
ReplyDeleteA single question - Why can't the Bob's potato starch simply be cooked and cooled to make RS3?
Thanks for the great blog - very informative.
Brilliant post - really well researched and balanced thank you. Have been slowly introducing cooked plantain and cooked green banana flour (can't tolerate potato or grains) and am doing ok with it despite being on FODMAP. I see the ref to Mt Uncle info re cooked banana flour retaining up to -18% RS2 . What is the RS2 diff in plantain from raw to cooked to cooled? Can't find this info.
ReplyDeleteThanks again for sharing your many hours of research and work.
Cheers
Ceel
Ceel
ReplyDeleteFor green, cooked plantains, I have no idea but ripe cooked has about 3-4 g/100g serving. Trader Joe's started carrying (ripe) plantain chips which are fabulous. If you can tolerate starches, this is nice. Better to make your own!
Let me know if you track down!
I've been extremely healthy all my life but gradually over the past year to two years, I am noticing health issues that concern me. I have traced them back to two possible causes - (1) during a period of several months over a year ago, a periodontist was not able to heal an infected molar, despite rounds of antibiotics - both oral and placed inside the tooth...after months of this therapy, the tooth could not be saved, so I was directed to an oral surgeon, who pulled it and pronounced that my health should improve after that (noted with irony)....(2) around the same time, I entered menopause. Since this time, despite no changes in my eating habits (although decreased exercise due to new job), weight is piling on at an alarming rate. At the same time, I am noticing itchy palms and the only thing that helps is a dose of Zyrtec, which tells me this is a histamine reaction? and some episodes of bad hearburn...so all this brings me here to investigate gut issues - where do I begin? with testing? I eat a mostly whole foods diet, but unsure how to go about adding different fibers and starches - and not sure how to develop a customized approach. Akk advice is much appreciated. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you feel these factors are all interrelated. Stress can sometimes bring menopause on faster or cause skipped menses.
When a tooth is pulled the dead neurons/tendons and ligaments are fester and putrify leaving subclinical infections. You would need to see a special integrative dentist who knows how to read the appropriate scans to determine this.
Heartburn is definitely a sign of gut dysbiosis. Please the this post and more importantly join the conversation with the GUT GODDESSES! lol
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/10/dont-take-raw-resistant-starch-if-you.html
Dr B.G ,
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for giving so much of your time and expertise to the likes of me. I have a raw potato and psyllium husk smoothie with added high orac powders, 2 or 3 raw egg yolks, and a raw beetroot, every day consumed over the course of the day. From your comments, I get the impression that this will ensure plenty of butyrate gets to the distal end of the colon.
But will this bionic fiber smoothie, in combination with the usually about 60 gms of NSP's that I get from vegetables be enough to feed the core gut micro biota that you have mentioned don't eat RS2 , like l- plantarum bifido, acidophilus, Roseburia, etc. Is the 'crossfeeding', without any available RS3, from the fiber my gut bugs get to choose from enough? Or do you absolutely need RS3 for an optimum gut biome? Most weeks I don't eat any RS3 at all.
Mind you I've got no complaints about what this combo of fiber seems to be achieving. Life long candida overgrowth seems to have finally packed it in (in the space of, no joke, about 3 weeks), and all the concomitant neuro stuff you've occasionally mentioned (brain fog, fatigue, memory ...etc is resolving by the day.
But all you experts, particularly the people like Keith Bell, who don't comment that often, but when they do, it's always compelling, keep reiterating the mounting evidence of how necessary RS3 is.
So if you think I can cover all gut bug bases with a wide range of fiber in plentiful amounts, that doesn't include any RS 3, I'll just keep on with what I'm doing now.
Otherwise I'll just punch through my lifelong aversion to beans.
I should add that I haven't had any flatulence at all, but from the get go, It was never just RPS. Raw whole potatoes and at least a tablespoon of psyllium husk, plus assorted NPS from food.
So I suppose whatever gas was being produced was being gobbled up by someone else.
Stuart,
ReplyDeleteYoure welcome! Glad you see wonderful results!! Yes Keith is great.
The combo sounds excellent! Love your beets!! -- what else have you done for candida? Have you done gut testing to see if there are other opportunistic growths?
Why are you eating raw potatoes? There can be adverse effects in the pancreas and significant protein malnourishment. Most people with SIBO/SIFO already have compromised protein digestion (lack of enzymes) and gastric acid.
J Nutr. 1989 Nov;119(11):1598-609.
Pancreatic response in rats and mice to trypsin inhibitors from soy and potato after short- and long-term dietary exposure.
Gumbmann MR1, Dugan GM, Spangler WL, Baker EC, Rackis JJ.
The effects on the pancreas of chronic (95 wk) dietary exposure to protease inhibitors from soy and potato were compared in rats and mice. Soy and potato trypsin inhibitor (TI) concentrates were prepared from defatted raw soy flour and potato juice, respectively, by selective precipitation and ultrafiltration. Animals were fed a diet in which casein supplied approximately 20% protein. Each concentrate (less than 1% of the diet) was added to provide 100 and 200 mg of trypsin inhibitor activity per 100 g of diet. In short-term (28 d) experiments in rats, both sources of TI decreased the apparent nutritional quality of casein and produced pancreatic hypertrophy consistent with a hormonally mediated feedback mechanism for pancreatic adaptation to diet that is interactive with the nutritional status of the animal. After long-term feeding (95 wk), soy and potato TI produced dose-related pancreatic pathology in rats consisting of nodular hyperplasia and acinar adenoma, which was typical of that associated with raw soy flour. Although mice responded similarly to rats to soy TI in short-term (28-d) feeding experiments, they were resistant to the formation of these lesions following long-term feeding. This considerable species variation in propensity to develop preneoplastic and neoplastic lesions of the pancreas is not predicted by the short-term hypertrophic and hyperplastic response of the pancreas to TI.
What NSP are you eating -- inulin, grains?
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for the quick response Dr B.G
ReplyDeleteOops! On reflection, I'd like to keep my pancreas, and the protein digestion sounds a bit scary too. What do you make of the 'rock in the middle' Irish potato cuisine tradition that Duck commented on at FTA. And eating part of tubers raw was probably an inevitable and habitual part of the ancestral hunter/gatherer diet you would think.
Anyway it looks like I'll just use the starch from potatoes from now on. And RS3... ok I get it!
Actually I was curious about your personal ambivalence about RS2. Only option (C) has any PS at all and even in that one it's only a minor player ( 1 tspn) Inulin still seems to do the heavy hitting. Although obviously the RS3 should be there from cooked and cooled starch- ie not as a smoothie ingredient.
Yet within 2 paragraphs you (or Tim- you both collaborated on this didn't you?) PS is back to the 1-2 tablespoon level, and inulin doesn't even get mentioned ( this is the version for the people with no auto immune issues)
So can I ask you, if you get plenty of other fiber - Psyllium husk, Inulin,gums, glucomannan etc AND lots of RS3, do you actually need ANY RS2 at all?
I do see that RS itself is a VERY important part of the gut health picture, but RS3 is going to 'trump' (to use your term) RS2 every time isn't it?
The NSP's I'm getting? Fructans mainly. Speaking of which, I noticed while listening to Chris Kresser's podcast with Jeff Leach that he cautioned that any browning (caramelization) of alliums would destroy the prebiotic effect. Do you know about this? Sauteed alliums are the tastiest way to eat them.
You asked about my saga with Candida Albicans. I think my Mother gave it to me at birth, and I've satisfied insatiable cravings for sugar with vast quantities of fruit for most of my life. Fruit's healthy, right? Everyone knows that. Unfortunately The role of modern sweet fruit in ensuring that yeast and fungus basically rule our bodies is the untold nutritional story of the modern era. All that pectin in fresh whole (not juiced) fruit. You would have thought my guts would have always had a stellar biome. Not so unfortunately. Or perhaps it was stellar, but basically couldn't withstand the onslaught of the fruit fructose engorged yeast and fungus. Most days, until I cold turkeyed about a year ago, I would have eaten about fifteen pieces of fruit. That's in addition to eating a huge amount of other food. But I've always been skinny. I'm sure I'm not alone, and of course there's so many other more serious diseases afflicting people, but it is simply horrifying to me how much Candida has affected all aspects of my life. Not just my toenails or my scalp. The neurological toll alone is disturbing.
Anyway, I was actually winning, by just cutting out all fruit, and even some sweet vegetables about a year ago. But progress was glacial. I think it would have taken several years. Starting the raw potato/psyllium suddenly took it to warp speed. Gemma has speculated that it may actually have been the antimicrobials in the raw potato, rather than any RS effect.
I've no idea. I'll let you know whether substituting RS3 for the RS2 stalls me.
Also, it's probably worth mentioning that because I'm such a tight ass and couldn't bring myself to fork out for probiotics, since I started the raw potato/psyllium smoothies, I've been adding the strained juice from a couple of spoonfuls of dirt from random parts of my garden. I have two dogs.
I suppose looking back I've been lucky that the pathogens were on the losing team from that microbial free for all.
Wish I could show you my new toenails. I feel like this has definitely turned the tide.
Stuart,
ReplyDeleteI love your comments -- thanks! YOu are an extremely bright and intelligent boy and I hope you pursue a line of work which takes you beyond your dreams and touches a lot of people. You seem to be completely aware why, when, how you've come to be where you are now gut-wise!
Stopping fructose and sweets definitely can have antifungal and gut shifting effects. The trypsin inhibitors in raw potatoes is not small, hence no culture eats them on any regular basis or in traditional dishes on a daily basis, that I am aware of.
Thanks-- I missed editing that part! Yes I think PS has a role but mainly for people who have already healed their gut and have robust and abundant #'s of the ancestral core. For those who 'tolerate' there probably is an initial, false honeymoon effect because the gut has been damaged for so long.
Most people can not add or eat fiber diversity like Wilbur or others who are more aware about optimal health, who read and don't fall for fad diets (Ashwin Patel -- read his comments please).
So for rapid gut healing, PS hinders and hurts the ancestral core more than the benefits. Even Tim Steele is probably not immune as we have seen the AmGut testing results and knowing he gained 10 lbs, fatty liver and gout with such a gut profile and missing the ancestral core.
On gut health, we must focus on the bugs. Bugs, not drugs ;)
Most americans only get 5-10 g of fiber, no? When someone adds PS at the tune of 20 g or more -- this is a tremendous amount 2 to 4-fold more than a gut is accustomed to and it will change the flora in 2-4wks radically. PS however feeds the ancient 'bottom feeders' -- not our human core strains. We are no longer hamsters. Neither are our gut flora.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at this post -- all the human ancestral core are literally starved on a high PS dosage because it only feeds Bacteroides (which eats RS3, inulin and everything lol) and R bromii.
The most protective bifido, B. LONGUM (which you are low in my friend) is starved (we have another report, future post). PS does feed bifido but only the animal strains and less than half the strains of B adolescentis, which most people lack secondary to potent antibiotics.
Dr B.G.,
ReplyDeleteDo you know how much RS3 would be produced if you just heated dry raw starch and then cooled it ( maybe multiple times to produce more)? And would mixing it with some fat make a difference?
I ask for two reasons. Tim mentioned that the less moisture the better for retrogradation. So why not just take moisture out of the equation entirely?
Also the more intense and fast the heat the more the starch retrogrades when it cools. So if you bake it or fry it completely dry, you could get it really hot super fast.
Or do you need the starch to be wet for the first heating and/or cooling stage?
And if so how wet?
Dr B.G.
ReplyDeleteWow!!!! Damn those TI's. My cup runneth over, honestly. I'm just so grateful to have got this feedback at what is obviously the end of my ' 'false honeymoon' period.
I'd just perfected my raw tater smoothie technique too.
So I hate you. A little bit.
But I love that you know the 'core' like an old friend. Its needs and foibles both. This truly is paradigm shifting stuff don't you think?
I can't help remembering Art Ayers (on 'Cooling Inflammation') waxing eloquent about the DNA like double helix structure of RS. Actually I thought he was talking about both RS2 and RS3. So it's unbelievably priceless that you have clarified that only RS3 presents this amazing structure to those hungry gut buddies.
So just to be clear. If you get a wide range of fermentable fiber including about 40g of RS3, you don't need any RS2 at all? Actually what I'm hearing from you is that inulin and RS3 are the stars, with small amounts of one or many of all the others as well to liven things up occasionally.
But no RS2.
And thanks for your kind thoughts.
And Dr B.G.,
ReplyDeleteI've read every one of Ashwin's comments.That stuff about making the complex to ensure 'weedkillers' made it through the stomach pH. Unbelievable.