Saturday, December 6, 2014

New Bulletproof Podcast with Dave Asprey: Dr. Grace Liu: Fixing the Gut Microbiome with Resistant Starch and Probiotics – #177

Dr. Grace Liu: Fixing the Gut Microbiome with Resistant Starch and Probiotics – #177

Click HERE

Here are some resources that I discussed or were related:


Anonymous said...

Dr. Grace,

What a tremendous job you did in this interview! Super.

Besides your great mind, you have enviable skin, hair and teeth. The stuff Weston Price indicated as stellar health.

Thanks for sharing your research.

Brian Fantanna said...

Dr Grace,

Do you still recommend the 7 steps? including taking the bionic fiber 'smoothie'?

Thank you

Anonymous said...

Dr Grace, is lean, glowing and HAWWWT!!

Tom Weaver said...

Hi Grace,
I was wondering if you had any tips on how to seek out a good functional medicine practitioner to order the tests you talk about and work through treatment options based on results.

What questions would you ask of someone, qualifications to look for etc?

I've been dealing with some IBS problems, and think I would benefit from working with someone to get a bit of an idea of what's going on inside.

I'm in Australia.

Your blog is great, stacks of useful information. Thanks heaps for sharing it all.

Cheers, Tom.

Keith Bell said...

Congrats on a great interview! So many points made, most importantly helping us understand which bugs are important to maintain. Dave downplays lentils because he thinks they make people people feel badly, but why? Maybe they don't have the bifido (read balls) to digest high levels of GOS, hence malabsorption symptoms. Similarly, some can digest fat while others such as Celiacs cannot leading to symptoms due to fat malabsorption (maybe they don't have the bifido BSH to process/produce bile to digest fat). Great point about lack of clostridia causing peanut allergy. Our immune systems are a reciprocal relationship between microbes and host.

The point Dave made about collagen as prebiotic is interesting, though Duck over on his page corrected him regarding fermentation producing acetate, not butyrate (though acetate along with lactate are precursors of butyrate). Collagen is a crucial part of the gut lining, so one might imagine clostridial collagenase causing damage in overgrowth.

But what leads to abnormal collagen production such as found in Crohn's and Dupuytren's contracture (I believe the collagenase cream used for hand contracture is product of clostridia!). Who's talking about these things as metabolic issues due to gut dysbiosis? I've heard hand contracture associated with sugar imbalances. What's causing collagen accumulation?
Who killed/moved the commensal clostridia? Children are now born imbalanced; the problem is generational.

Dr BG should get a new mic for xmas. I would have liked to have seen more reaction shots to increase interest, i.e., Grace just listening while pushing up her glasses, so sexy. Dave tilting his head while listening would have also been good.

Anonymous said...

@ Tom Weaver, what state are you in? Dr Jason Hawrelak in Tasmania is the best,

If you would like I can email you other options that I have found useful.

Anonymous said...

Great interview! Good thing you didn't let Dave walk over you, he's clearly still dogmatic about his
low fat.

I was wondering about parboiled rice. Apparently it only contains 0,72 grams / 100 gram RS3? That's not a whole lot! Is it close to being sufficient?

The paper also provides one additional interesting clue, if you mix rice 1:1 with water you get significantly less RS3 when heated/cooled than when you add more water (i.e. 1:2 ratio). Interesting!



Anonymous said...

Now with a working link to the RS3 content of rice.


Karen Metcalf said...

Dr Grace, I'm very interested in increasing Akkermansia in my gut. Is it available in any probiotics? Or how does one focus on increasing it? I've recently been treated for Klebsiella with Cipro, now trying to rebuild gut flora... and yes, I was diagnosed with Hashimotos earlier this year... you did mentioned there was a link with Klebsiella and Hashimotos, so no surprises there. I think I need more Akkermansia in my life, because of the Hashimotos I do struggle with weight gain. Any tips?

Dr. B G said...


You're too sweet! We can be grateful to both my grandmother and mother's high fiber, RS3, exposures to soil and wheat-free diets! I love WAPF and hope to become very active in our local chapter and meet and help promote our farmers out here. Weston A Price was way ahead of his times -- my teeth are ok, but he was correct. Within one generation there are can be significant teeth crowding and dental issues from the mom's diet and in utero formations, as my kids have mildly.

Dr. B G said...


Of course -- I'm not the best 'promoter' and didn't advertise the 7 Steps that well. Sorry about the lack of mentioning it. The 'smoothie' has altered based on what I've seen on peoples' testing and some unusual results: (1) my GERD out of nowhere with high dosage RPS re-trial (earlier I had great gut improvements, flattest tummy in 7-8 years and other benefits) (2) Tim had bouts of GERD during sedentary winter days and lastly (3) Tim had told me he experienced painful, tender fatty liver and elevated LFTs again out of nowhere and this lines up with a microbial pattern where are things growing in the uppergut that shouldn't (SIBO) and not enough of the gut guardians (B longum, Akkermansia).

For me, stress likely degraded some bifido and additionally I had stopped the bifido longum (FLORAMEND) probiotic for 2 mos prior to the RPS trial. It may not have happened (because it didn't earlier on other RPS trials) if the probiotic was on board.

The change in formula is adding only max 1 tsp RPS after confirmation of the gut strains that RPS appears to suppress and lower by competition of substrates in the gut; it feeds the bottom feeders, not our elite gut guardians.

Dr. B G said...


IFM (Institute for functional medicine) has global resources -- google them!

Dr. B G said...


Thanks for the collagen and clostridial link. I think overgrowths can certainly take their toll when they are setting up 'shop' for the long haul with biofilms and all kinds of new forts and establishments on our mucosa lining, usurping all nutrients and food!

Great line 'Our immune systems are a reciprocal relationship between microbes and host'!!

Dr. B G said...


Isn't the science of making these RS3 crystalline forms so fascinating? I can't get over what a science and biophysics of the water molecules and amylose/amylopectin re-annealing together to make the robust and unbreakable double helices in the starch matrices. The probiotics and gut flora love doing ballet and munching on these structures that cooking/steaming/cooling creates for them. As I mentioned in the podcast, these RS3 crystalline structures are so robust, they can conduct electricity for electrodes (not RS2).

Dr. B G said...


Akk is not in stores yet! But though I've seen particularly low levels, it appears every test I've seen does indeed have it. In nature, all animals have it in abundance 1-3% of stool flora (much more than the ubiome normals I posted earlier which was ~1%).

Like the rest of the gut flora, Akk likes to eat inulin and inulin-like oligosaccharides which is the 2nd most abundant fiber on earth besides RS3 that hits the gut. When we cook, inulin breaks down a bit further then we get these short segments called oligosaccharides. A gut friend was just sharing how he has seen how important these chain lengths are. Too short or too long, B longum won't feed -- has to be sort of Goldilocks perfect lol. Akk is probably similar and prefers the shorter chains. Yacon tubers, yacon syrup, onions, sunchokes, inulin-like fructans and leeks are perfect ways to obtain Akk's favorite fuel. How was your B longum on testing? Hashimoto's can also be associated with other vipers like Proteus and Yersinia. When Akk and B longum and other mucosa related flora like Roseburia/XIVa aare doing their jobs, the protection of the whole gut is optimal. In studies animal and human studies, when these are provided as live probiotics or boosted up with prebiotics, there is a reduction in many inflammatory markers, endotoxemia, lower blood sugars, less metabolic derangement, and improved fatty liver/NASH.

Kleb is hopefully subsided and at much lower concentration now. It would be a great time to build up both B longum (available in commercial probiotics) and Akk. A healthy mucosa barrier is key -- again B longum will the superstar to rebuild it. Akk eats mucin, so the barrier needs to be thick for it. Studies show some fasting (I think it was in pythons) somehow increases Akk. When we exercise, we boost B longum, bifido and lacto strains. Since Akk and B longum appear to share similar ecological food/anatomical niches, I suspect the same mechanism probably exists for Akk since it is found high in elite athletes like the Irish national rugby team.

Anonymous said...

anyone know what chia seed is beneficial for? seems to make me regular if eaten daily. thanks :)

Anonymous said...

"(2) Tim had bouts of GERD during sedentary winter days and lastly (3) Tim had told me he experienced painful, tender fatty liver"

There are some, including Tim himself, who feel that it is inappropriate of you to reveal confidential medical information on a blog. It also seems that Tim has since discovered that his liver is fine.
If this is your sole argument against PS, perhaps you are jumping to conclusions.
Also given the current limits in testing is it really accurate to say that the so-called 'ancestral core' is really at risk.

Karen said...

Dr Grace, thanks for your reply. longum wasn't tested - they only looked for nasties ( but they also found Escherichia and Serratia (in addition to Kleb), I don't know anything about either of those, anything thoughts on those? - no Yersinia or Proteus. Thanks so much for your advise on increasing Akk - will fast, exercise and take inulin... as well as nuture my longum. Thanks again!

Anonymous said...

We appreciate your dedication to analyzing gut health research. Wonder about answers to:
Is there a minimum time needed when cooling starch to optimize RS3 ?

Is there an optimum probiotic cfu count?

Can we overgrow b. longum?

Do you work with us individually?


Dr. B G said...


I ran everything by Tim a few weeks. Thank you for your concern! He is more fearless than you fear lol which is what I love about him, his testing and approach to experimentation. We are all allowed to have an opionion, no? Are you still in America?

Low gut diversity precedes nearly every disease of Western civilization. This is why the Hadza and Blue Zone longevity citizens don't have disease -- their guts are diverse and fed by diverse fibers and replenished by soil origin foods/beverages.

Dr. B G said...

That's great! Some people are allergic to chia seed, like psyllium seed. It has great mucilage fiber that swells and holds water.

Dr. B G said...


For fasting, just consider being careful of potential adrenal issues (it's not advised because taxes the cortisol demand). There are great Akk studies by some of my favorite gut researchers. Do you like cranberry extract? Akk loves mucin and one study by Van den Abbeele (ROCKSTAR) showed 3-fold increase of mucin with psyllium (long chain AX) and 6-fold increase with inulin, in humanized rats.

This is my favorite study today:

Acta Paediatr Suppl. 2005 Oct;94(449):31-3.
Increase of faecal bifidobacteria due to dietary oligosaccharides induces a reduction of clinically relevant pathogen germs in the faeces of formula-fed preterm infants.
Knol J1, Boehm G, Lidestri M, Negretti F, Jelinek J, Agosti M, Stahl B, Marini A, Mosca F.
Author information
In a previous study on formula-fed preterm infants, we were able to demonstrate that dietary oligosaccharides (a mixture of 90% galacto-oligosaccharides and 10% fructo-oligosaccharides in a concentration of 1 g/dl) stimulate the growth of faecal bifidobacteria. In the present explorative analysis of this study, we focus on the effect of the dominance of bifidobacteria on the presence of clinically relevant pathogens (Staphylococcus aureus, Staphylococcus epidermidis, Staphylococcus haemolyticus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Enterobacter, Klebsiella, Proteus, Streptococcus group B, Clostridium difficile, Bacillus subtilis and Acinetobacter).

The data demonstrate that stimulation of bifidobacteria by prebiotic oligosaccharides reduces the presence of clinically relevant pathogens in the faecal flora, indicating that prebiotic substances might have the capacity to protect against enteral infections.

Dr. B G said...

The studies show 24hrs in the fridge peaking of RS3 retrogradation. But taking out at 12hrs, probably only causes loss of 1-2 g per 100g serving. It's not convenient for me so I make sure my stomach acidity or acidity with the meal (like salads with vinegar) accompany the starch. See? INSTANT RS3 (no refrigeration required lol)

Jacque Pepin taught that to me in my 20s!!

No it is strain dependent how effective they are. Obviously for reseeding I find the higher dosages (if tolerated) are awesome, mimicking FMTs or at least our ancestral exposures to dirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrty surfaces, foods and beverages.

Yes -- our guts can overgrowth anything and I've seen nearly all. If the barrier is broken, the commensals invade and take over. The biofilms get saturated with overgrowths and these slimy fortresses protect the aggressive, opportunistic overgrowths from the body's immune surveillance. Charcoal and clay really can help to bind some of the biofilms and help heal the barrier.

I started my practice, please click on my name for contact.

Dr. B G said...

FOS/inulin combo is found in yacon (which is produced like molasses) at about 40-50% concentration apparently. It works fantastically! Yacon is neat -- it has also alphaglucosidase inhibitors, making the carbs in there (not much, 1/3 the calorie of sugar) 'resistant' to our digestive enzyme degradation

Anonymous said...

Hi Grace, thanks for all you do. Were all learning so much by following your blog. Ive got a very messed up gut, low butyrate producers Bifidum, Roseburia, AKK and a terrible case of SIBO I think being caused by high levels Prevotella. Any carbs/fermentable fibers/prebiotics make my situation worse and my question is.....are there any prebiotic fermentable substrates I can introduce into my colon via enema thereby feeding my Butryate producing Biome Bugs while bypassing the overgrowths in my Small intestine? Worth a shot? Any suggestions as to what I could try putting up my backside?

Anonymous said...

But you are not simply saying that diversity is good. Everybody is saying that. You seem to be implying that by taking PS the ancestral core will die off, and to back that up you are using Tim's gut tests as an example.

Anonymous said...

this article refers to a study that shows that cranberry polyphenols can stimulate Akkermansia growth

Tim Steele said...

Anon - Grace has been privy to all of my gut tests, labs, and health concerns as a friend, not a doctor. I gave her express permission to discuss them how she sees fit. I think that this information needs to be shared freely. If I had a problem with any of this, Grace would be the first to know. I don't have a problem with her discussing me or my experiments. They are out there for everyone to see and interpret as they wish.

Dr. B G said...

Tim fails to mention this, but several weeks ago I reviewed the parts of this current series of RPS cautions and concerns, including Tim's low Akkermansia and the linkage to NASH which is a form of SIBO, small intestinal overgrowths.

He responded that it was fine to discuss. I asked him three times if he would want to decline and he generously declined each time.

Anonymous said...

Does yacon root powder have the same FOS as the syrup?

Anonymous said...

Grace do you think this would be useful to stimulate Akermansia growth.

Anonymous said...

Any thoughts on this product Grace?

Christie said...

Dr. Grace is so healthy she glows!

I'm due for a new pair of glasses w/ frames too big for my head. ;)

Anonymous said...

could you please write with what you defair from Tim, about fibers and bacteria like ex. (Akkermansia)your side and tim side, and mabe there is a difference in male or female? Thank you

Dr. B G said...

More thoughts on how high dosage raw starches (HAM, RPS) can impair gut health, diversity and FAT BURNING. lol

Dr. B G said...


Thx for your kind compliments!

Tom W said...

@Grace - Thanks for the link, I'll be looking into that.

@Anon - thanks for the tip re Jason Hawrelak. I'm in Melbourne, do you have any knowledge of practitioners around here? Thanks for your reply.

Anonymous said...

Hi, i have cohn's which is in remission without any drugs. I have just had a comprehensive stool analysis. I am low in beneficial SCFA, low in bifidobacteria, positive for h pylori and positive for blastocystis hominis.

Can someone please recommend to me what kind of fibers and other natural substances might hel address these issue.