Tuesday, October 14, 2014

Don't Take Raw Potato Starch (RPS) Temporarily If You Have an Autoimmune Disorder (Part 5)

This is the 5th of 5 series:

Part 1: Don't Take Resistant Starch Alone and Other Precautions; RS2 Needs to Be Taken With Other Fiber To Spread Fermentation Completely Across the Entire Colon
Part 2: Real Food Resistant Starch (RS3) Trumps High-Dose Potato Starch Diet To Expand the Lean and Immunoprotective Core Microbiota (Roseburia, Eubacteria, F. prausnitzii, Bifidobacteria)
Part 3: Don't Take Resistant Starch If You Have Moderate to Severe Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) Temporarily
Part 4: Don't Eat Raw Resistant Starch (RS2) If Pre-Cancerous or Cancerous for Colorectal Cancer, Temporarily
Part 5: Don't Take Raw Potato Starch (RPS) Temporarily If You Have an Autoimmune Disorder


Autoimmune disorders: if RS eaters are in the small intestines or severe intestinal permeability continues to allow normal gut microbes to leach into the blood, don't take any resistant starch and digestible starches temporarily. 

How do you know? Cooked starches or raw RS make you very sick, flu-like, muscle achy, headachey, constipated, diarrhea, or bloated. 

Fix your gut by seeding, weeding, then feeding the missing populations of gut guardians like soil probiotics, Bifidobacteria, Roseburia and Akkermansia.

Various autoimmune disorders implicate microbes that selectively prefer digestible starch and resistant starch.  Through of a process known as molecular mimicry the body mistakenly attacks its own tissues (joints, brain, bowels) in an ancient programmed attempt to contain the invading enteric microbe leaching into the blood and lymph circulation (Ebringer et al, 2011 and 2013):
--Candida
--Prevotella
--Klebsiella
--Porphyromonas gingivalis
--spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi
--Serratia
--Citrobacter
--Morganella morganii (I had this one, REALLY FUN, had to SEED/WEED)
--Yersinia
--Shigella
--Salmonella
--Campylobacter
--Chlamydia

I had to seed-weed out a few things before I fixed my gut (my n=1). Just recently I retested and I've maintained a parasite free gut after weeding and by using bionic fiber version B (7-Steps) and soil probiotics.



Which inflammatory and autoimmune disorders are characterized by the above microbial fingerprints? 

Rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus, multiple sclerosis, psoriasis, inflammatory bowel disease (Crohn's, ulcerative colitis), celiac disease, Grave's and Hashimoto's thyroiditis, allergy and asthma, etc.



SEEDING-WEEDING: TENDING YOUR INNER HORTICULTURE

Seeding with great probiotics helps crowd out weeds without toxicity or carpet bombing: Step #3 Probiotics -- soil based, bifidobacteria, lactobacilli. This includes all of our beneficial symbionts that antibiotics and high sugar diets kill off.

Ashwin Patel finds neem (Himalaya HHTheraNeem) to be great for many gut applications: antifungal, weeding, antiparasitic/microbial, help the flow of bile, liver and skin. Tim Steele loves botanical/medicinal mushroom teas; these are potent weeders and anti-inflammatory. He's used it for many years. To blunt die-off, don't forgot charcoal, bentonite and edible earth.

After antibiotics the above adverse microbes can flourish if already present or newly introduced. Antibiotics have multiple ways of silently damaging our bodies. Antibiotics are so potent. By wiping out 'bad' flora, the collateral damage is annihilation and genocide of the 'good' microbes that are the sentinels of the gut. I like botanical ways of 'weeding' instead because these are often gentler (not always) and can preserve the gut guards like Bifidobacteria, Roseburia and Akkermansia better. The damage left by antibiotics allows the below to proliferate:
--Candida, Aspergillus, etc yeasts
--parasites (eg, E nana, I also hadB hominii, way more common than you'd think)
--protozoa (giardia, malaria, etc)
--viruses (herpes, EBV, CMV, etc)



On the contrary, cell counts (CFU/ml) of presumptive Bacteroides, Staphylococcus, Salmonella, Shighella and Klebsiella were significantly higher (P = 0.014) in T-CD [TREATED CELIAC DISEASE] compared to HC children [NON-CELIAC HEALTHY CONTROLS].  --DiCagno et al 2011


Candida proteins resemble gluten -- once an immune reaction against candida occurs, then ginormous gluten intolerances develop. Celiac can be one if the right HLA DQ2/8 immune cells are around.  The body attacks food-based wheat, barley, rye and oats with a vengeance because these contain (or are cross contaminated) with gluten. Stopping gluten allows the immune system/gut to calm down. This is Step #6 of the 7 Steps and one of the most critical.

Klebsiella pneumonia proteins resemble the collagen in joints, skin and connective tissues all over the body. If the gut is leaky and K. pneumonia breaches into the blood circulation and triggers immunity, then several inflammatory or autoimmune conditions may form. AS is an autoimmune reaction where the body attacks joints in the spine and all over the body. Klebsiella is implicated in nearly autoimmune disease including celiac disease because it is such a strong gut disruptor and opportunistic viper. The heritability and genetics of RA, celiac and other autoimmune disorders has not changed. What has changed are the mass extinctions occurring in our inner gardens. Celiacs are not born, they are created by antibiotics and the deficiency of the guardians of the gut.


The prevalence of HLA-B27 varies markedly in the general population. For example, about 8% of Caucasians, 4% of North Africans, 2-9% of Chinese, and 0.1-0.5% of persons of Japanese descent possess this gene.[1] In northern Scandinavia (Lapland), 24% of people are HLA-B27 positive, while 1.8% have associated ankylosing spondylitis. --Wikipedia



HLA B27, New Autoimmune Disease Affecting Millions (Ebringer et al, 2007)

Ebringer was one of the first to promote the connection between dietary starches feeding enteric Klebsiella and several autoimmune diseases including akylosing spondylitis (AS).  Klebsiella is omnivorous -- it eats both digestible and raw starches equally well. Many have failed gut issues after trying raw potato starch, HAM or even green banana flour if they have large overgrowths of Kleb, before doing some seeding and weeding. Normally the soil probiotics, Roseburia, and Bifidobacteria protect the intestinal lining to prevent this breaching of Kleb into blood circulation. High stress, sugar-refined-carb-based diets and antibiotics lower these guardians, leading to broken barriers, thus allowing Kleb, candida, Prevotella and other implicated microorganisms to breach and translocate to other organs.

Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2007 Sep;1110:112-20.
B27 disease is a new autoimmune disease that affects millions of people.
"B27 disease" is a new autoimmune disease that afflicts millions of people throughout the world. "B27 disease" occurs in individuals who have ankylosing spondylitis (AS) or preankylosing spondylitis and/or uveitis and are also positive for HLA-B27. Molecular mimicry between the bowel microbe Klebsiella and the HLA-B27 molecule, as well as the spinal collagens types I, III, and IV, indicates a pathological mechanism involving autoimmunity. Antibodies to Klebsiella microbes have been reported in AS patients from 18 different countries. Sera from patients with AS show complement-dependent cytopathic activity against sheep red cells coated with HLA-B27 peptide antigens. Diagnosis of B27 disease can lead to early treatment, involving low-starch diet, sulfasalazine, and immunosuppressive and biological agents so as to prevent the irreversible bony changes of established classical AS. The concept of B27 disease provides a new approach to the study and treatment of these disorders and needs to be evaluated in prospective studies by the world rheumatological community.
PMID: 17911426



FEEDING: RAW POTATO STARCH MAY WORSEN SOME AUTOIMMUNITY AND INFLAMMATORY CONDITIONS

Some autoimmunity will not respond well to raw potato starch or raw green banana flour. It depends if SIBO/SIFO is present -- microorganisms growing inappropriately in the small intestines -- and which organisms are growing there. If any of the listed bugs from above consume RS2, then there might be problems and worsening of autoimmunity.

IMHO Most individuals just are not that 'in tune' with their bods to identify if something is truly jiving in the gut or not. Please test, don't guess. B-I-O-H-A-C-K.

Figure out if you are low in one or many of your ancestral symbionts. Inventory an accurate list of what is in your black box, particularly if you have had or have currently an autoimmune disorder. Don't shift your gut into a shittier situation.

My favorite test is the Genova Diagnostics 2200 Stool which was recently upgraded to include some of my 7 ancestral core species. This progressive stool test will change modern medicine! Microbiome-based diagnostics and therapeutics will wipe out conventional healthcare because it offers routes to identify what's actually and truly 'wrong'.
  • Klebsiella appears to both consume raw RS2 and digestible starches - this is the big problem for Alkylosing Spondylitis (AS) and HLA B27. 
  • Prevotella and other Bacteroidetes can consume RS2 and 'bloom' with raw RS2 and starches. Prevotella overgrowths are highly implicated in many autoimmune  and inflammatory conditions: Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA), new onset RAreactive arthritis, obesity (6-fold higher), T2 diabetes, smokers, UC/IBD, multiple sclerosis, and psoriasis
  • Metabolic gut cross feeders -- I have no idea who these are but in an unhealthy, unbalanced gut, often these are present. If adverse effects occur with raw potato starch or green banana flour, then these are likely to be present. They break down RS2 to make products of starch hydrolysis, that feed one or several of the above listed pathogenic microbes.




CROWDING OUT CANDIDA, KLEBSIELLA AND/OR PREVOTELLA

To crowd out the above opportunistic vipers, try to achieve as perfect as possible digestion, probiotics and inulin to help move them out of the small intestines. A low starch diet initially helps improve Kleb, Candida or Prevotella overgrowths. The 7 steps, removing yeasts and parasites, gastric acidity and the flow of bile are all vital. Inulin (bionic fiber version B) lowers Prevotella  where on the other hand raw potato starch may strongly flare it.  Raising the beneficial symbionts will further eradicate any remaining vipers -- the ancestral soil probiotics, Bifidobacteria/B. longum, Roseburia and Akkermansia. These populations grow and thrive when we make a point to eat a diverse and varied rainbow of cooked-cooled RS3 and avoid high-dose raw maize or potato starch which unfortunately LOWERS ALL OF THEM. Depending on the balance and composition of organisms in the gut, high dose potato starch may worsen these gut profiles if Prevotella or Klebsiella is a dominating gut growth. Just as in high risk or pre-cancerous colorectal cancer, high dose potato starch is likely to contribute to exacerbation of a detrimental and carcinogenic gut microbiota 'fingerprint' by promoting low Roseburia and Clostridia clusters XIVa, the main butyrate factories of our guts.



7 STEPS WORKS FOR AUTOIMMUNITY

After identifying the pathogens and what beneficial gut flora are missing, it is much easier to fix autoimmunity and gut health. Here are some cases of completely resolved autoimmunity and disappearance of auto-antibodies within 4-6 weeks after starting the 7 Steps. Weeding was done to some extent in one case, but in the case only probiotics/prebiotics.

88 comments:

Anonymous said...

You might want to be careful with the neem, WebMD warns against taking it if you have autoimmune.

Dr. B G said...

Thanks! On the link with Ashwin -- please ck it out.

What the concern is that RA patients are on immunosuppressants and Neem may counteract by actually improving immunity which is related to fixing the gut. However many botanicals improve either TH1, TH2 or TH17 arms of the immune system. Depending on what's going on, these may worsen or improve the immunity picture (fyi, it call be tested).


http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-577-NEEM.aspx

Lithium interacts with NEEM
Neem might have an effect like a water pill or "diuretic." Taking neem might decrease how well the body gets rid of lithium. This could increase how much lithium is in the body and result in serious side effects. Talk with your healthcare provider before using this product if you are taking lithium. Your lithium dose might need to be changed.

Medications for diabetes (Antidiabetes drugs) interacts with NEEM
Neem might decrease blood sugar. Diabetes medications are also used to lower blood sugar. Taking neem along with diabetes medications might cause your blood sugar to go too low. Monitor your blood sugar closely. The dose of your diabetes medication might need to be changed.

Some medications used for diabetes include glimepiride (Amaryl), glyburide (DiaBeta, Glynase PresTab, Micronase), insulin, pioglitazone (Actos), rosiglitazone (Avandia), chlorpropamide (Diabinese), glipizide (Glucotrol), tolbutamide (Orinase), and others.

Medications that decrease the immune system (Immunosuppressants) interacts with NEEM
Neem might increase the immune system. By increasing the immune system, neem might decrease the effectiveness of medications that decrease the immune system.

Some medications that decrease the immune system include azathioprine (Imuran), basiliximab (Simulect), cyclosporine (Neoral, Sandimmune), daclizumab (Zenapax), muromonab-CD3 (OKT3, Orthoclone OKT3), mycophenolate (CellCept), tacrolimus (FK506, Prograf), sirolimus (Rapamune), prednisone (Deltasone, Orasone), corticosteroids (glucocorticoids), and others.

Steve said...

Hi Grace

First, I hope you are well.

Until I started your rs+ psyllium +ORAC green powder + SBO, I had IBS. I had so long I thought I was normal and did not realize Butus Explodus was not a normal way of pooping. If I stop the Bionic Fiber my pooping gets bad real fast. Also it seems I need to do all three items in the Bionic Fiber to have to keep my IBS at bay. I poop about four to five times in the morning when taking the Bionic Fiber + SBO.

Also, I have bad eczema on my feet for long time now and my tongue is more white than I think it should be. So I think I may need to do some weeding, but I not sure how to weed.

Any thoughts?

Dr. B G said...

Hey

Have you tried switching to Version C (lol): Psyllium + Inulin and some anti-candidal regimens?

We talk about weeding in the comments here:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/09/dont-take-resistant-starch-alone-and.html?showComment=1411732380488#c7329568020218498644

Tigress35 said...

I relate to caution when taking RS2/PS. I don't get much RS3 and always took potato starch with other fibers and probotics simultaneously, and I've had great improvement in bowel function/resolution of constipation, however a reappearance of candida symptoms I kicked awhile ago, in addition to what is likely a gas bubble under my left ribcage. It's hard to reconcile that I'm no longer constipated and having perfect bristol bowel movements (after dealing with constipation my entire life)but that it has then caused me to regress in health in other ways. Any thoughts other than the weed and reseed protocol outlined in your post?

Anonymous said...

Hi Grace,

Given all of your recent data, do you feel the following SBO'S are the top one's to cycle if RS is still a major issue (Primal Defense Ultra, AOR3 PrescriptAssist)...and are the prebiotics in SBO's a concern at all (for instance AOR3 has PS)?

Additionally, any new thoughts about FMT and it's ability to get the gatekeepers/SBO's efficiently into the LI given that some of the key ancestral species are not currently in probiotic form? One would still have to work on the overgrowth in the SI while sealing up the mucosal lining congruently, but it may (?) have the greatest potential to deliver all of the species you mention at once.

Anonymous said...

Great article serie, Grace!
I just would like to "defend" Tim Steele and Richard Nikolei for having provided the raw PS prescription to the paleo crowd.

I don't think any of them advertized it as a magic bullet curing everything. Tim always said it was a cheap way to assess the shape of your gut flora, and nothing else, if I understood him correctly. The positive side effects reported by many people should by no means be taken to imply that provided you eat raw PS every day, you will magically cure everything that ails you.
Sure, they have evolved their thinking about it over time (thanks to you I take it - and how is the book going by the way ??) but who would believe that feeding on raw PS for the rest of his/her life is a panacea for good health ? I don't think that is how our ancestors thrived :)

I find it awesome that you provide these articles because it reminds people looking for a magic bullet that there isn't such thing.

Dr. B G said...

Tigress,

That's odd. Were there any triggering factors for the candida -- sugar binge party? mental stress? lack of sleep? exposure to heavy metals or perhaps now you're gut/body and detox systems are better, the mercury and metals may be coming out now...??

All the SBOs, biifido and lactobacilli probiotics are antifungal but for additional coverage there are many options
--biocurcumin
--neem
--coconut oil
--inulin
--etc
http://www.medicalinsider.com/bacterial.html





Anon,

I love the SBOs, ALL OF THEM, and we need them. They eat inulin and many other diverse plant fibers (in addition to PS). PS is good for stable packaging.

Bacteroides in Rx Assist actually is omnivorous, they help break down and assimilate fats and proteins too.

FMTs work like there is no tomorrow clinically. Soon a new frozen poop pill will be sold I heard. However I've observed a few failures. The root problems still need to be identified, addressed and hopefully fixed. One report showed in post-FMT the rate of autoimmune disorders is 5%, but they had not controls. FMTs won't necessarily fix the immunity issues but they recover much because as you mentioned they contain EVERYTHING. I think humans have lost this healthy coprophagic contact...

Screening will be key -- avoiding guts that are missing the ancestral core microbiota would be good. The person should be vibrant with health and good hormone balance. High diversity is an important criteria. If it were possible, testing the functionality of the microbes would be ideal later. High functioning microbes that work collaboratively and in cross-feeding each other are the key to longevity.





Hey Anon,

THx for your comments! I concur -- it's no magic cure.

Actually raw potato starch is a really poor litmus test. Most people do fine, while adversely skewing their gut populations with taking it (without the 7 steps)! Do you do gut testing? SHOW ME THE TESTING lol

Without true gut testing, potato starch may blindly ruin and wreck the diversity and balance of the gut quite frankly.

Tim used raw potato starch with diverse fiber: RS3 10-20g/day (legumes, rice) and wonderful vegetables from his garden for his experiment with AmGut. Unfortunately his gut was apparently missing over half the ancestral core microbiota. IN the gut field, this is known as poor gut diversity.

The ones that were apparently missing are important for (a) achieving leanness and longevity, (b) optimal metabolism and (d) tight junctions:
--clostridia IV
--clostridia XIVa (important for reversing peanut, gluten, dairy and other food allergies)
--Roseburia (doesn't eat RS2 but RS3)
--Eubacteria
--F. prausnitzii (eats no starch at all)
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/09/dont-take-resistant-starch-alone-part-2.html

That's great we concur that PS is not enuf. Heisenbug was quite astute:
http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/why-resistant-starch-is-probably-not-enough/


Tim's latest thoughts about the evolution of RS3 v. raw RS2 here:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/09/dont-take-resistant-starch-alone-part-2.html?showComment=1412108492301#c636751738200423689

'I think where potato starch will end up in my life, long-term, is just as an occasional supplement when I don't eat enough real fiber foods on some days. You know how it goes...eating in a restaurant, parties, whatever.

I think I'll also switch it up with inulin, "the other white powder."'

Anonymous said...

Grace, I followed the raw PS advice for like a few weeks way back when it started to become popular at FTA.

But then, I really dislike the TASTE of it, and that's what saved me from this odd "medicine". I switched to inulin at the time and did not turn back. Much different effect :)

I get my RS from foods (beans, spuds, rice, buckwheat, etc).

Dr. B G said...

Anon,

Thanks for the feedback. Every gut has had different damage as well as different exposures. The research will lead to better metrics to track and eval later I believe.

RPS is great for dreaming, but at what cost to the gut?

Can a better gut-brain axis be built on better evolutionary and health principles, gut research and biohacking? Is there a reason that Tiger Nut man is extinct?

Ashwin Patel said...

Fantastic Article Grace.
I feel like saying I told you so!!
My first post on freetheanimal
Ashwin says:
November 21, 2013 at 05:41
Have you any views on the fact that Resistant starch can feed and lead to an overgrowth of Klebsiella in the Colon, a bacterium that is linked with Crohn’s and ankylosing Spondylitis?
My post on mrheisenbug
Ashwin Patel
March 20, 2014 at 6:30 pm
Mr. Heisenbug ,
I agree with all the benefits of Butyrate and other SCFA’s produced by fermentation of Resistant Starch and particularly Raw Potato Starch.
I take a combination of ingredients to achieve high levels of Butyrate throughout the gut.(My Formula contains Large dose of Potato Starch & Wheat Bran and small amounts of Inulin, Fructooligosaccharide, Whole Psyllium seeds with husk intact, Glucomannan from Konjac, Pectin , Gum Arabic and Guar Gum. I also include the Herbs Neem and Turmeric in my recipe and take the Probiotic BIFILAC-HP (Clostridium Butyricum plus). I have only experienced good results.
However, I am a bit worried for individuals who may be carriers of potential pathogens in the Gut and genetically predisposed to develop certain Autoimmune conditions . Professor Alan Ebringer at King’s College , London and others have linked Ankylosing Spondylitis and Crohn’s Disease with consumption of Starch which leads to an overgrowth of the causative organism Klebsiella in Genetically predisposed individuals. My understanding is that Starch that escapes digestion by Human Amylase and arrives in the Colon is available for microbial fermentation. It is still STARCH. All you need at this stage for fermentation to take place is suitable enzyme systems and I suspect many undesirable microbes have this team of enzymes (eg. Pullulanase). In any case, the pathogenic microbes may be able to use metabolites produced by the beneficial microbes for growth.(Hydrogen, Carbondioxide, Methane , etc). No?
My question is: Is Resistant starch really a Prebiotic (SPECIFIC for desirable beneficial microbes) or is it merely COLON FOOD for microbes that are able to ferment it and use it for growth and replication, including the bad guys? Has anyone done any research to find out if Potato Starch or RS supports or does not support the growth of potential pathogenic microbes that are part of the microbiota?
I think we are concentrating too much on the reported undeniable and potential benefits of Resistant starch and particularly Raw Potato Starch without addressing the possible undesirable effects.
What do you think?
A question for Tim Steele(tattertot). Do you still think RS from Raw Potato Starch is a Prebiotic?

Dr. B G said...

Ashwin~

Thanks for your comments -- it's too bad that for 'biohackers', very few actually have tested their gut except for Tim Steele. I'd love to see more testing later because what I think we will see also is that there are few guts superior to Tim's which responds with robustness with diet and prebiotic changes.

Very few people I see have these resilient gut changes. Most don't have the extent of environmental exposures that Tim enjoys: hunting bare handed, gardening, chicken poop, bat guano manure -- to name a few!

What the baseline initial microbiota and soil/environmental exposures (like national Irish RUGBY PLAYERS lol) determine and can predict the diet/prebiotic responses.

Since most people come to do the Paleo diet because of obesity, health woes, mental issues, autoimmune or metabolic challenges, we know and can predict that their guts are already 'broken', no? They have little ways to replenish the broken and missing species. Many probably carry 'vipers' in their zoos.

I had Prevotella (and mild SIBO) and didn't initially tolerate RPS -- getting flu-like syndromes and immunosuppression within a few days of taking only 2 Tbs daily. (Now, no problem, if I take it). In the past I've had: obesity, Hashimoto's thyroiditis and chronic fatigue -- mild to mod amounts of Prevotella on GDX testing.

So I concur. I've had the same questions and over and over I have observed how raw potato starch can feed many unknown vipers instead of replenishing the ancestral core microbiota (per research from Julien Tap and Van den Abbeele). Without first assessing the vipers, blindly feeding creates added problems imho and low diversity. Additionally most don't eat the whole spectrum of fiber from whole, real, unrefined foods (as Tim's uBIOME n=1 experiment) to obtain cooked-cooled RS3, pectins, gums, RS1 in legumes/whole grains, hemicelluloses, AG, oligos, inulin, AX, AXOS, etc.



An RS3 supplement alone is no good either. In this study by Salonen et al ISME 2014, Type 3 RS (maize) alone in a low fiber produced low diversity. The researchers were SHOCKED. NSP alone also resulted in unexpected low diversity.

"Reduced diversity on the RS diet is
assumed to reflect the promotion of a relatively
small number of phylotypes, more specifically the
abundant members of the Ruminococcaceae by this chemically homogeneous substrate."
http://phdtree.org/pdf/53300129-impact-of-diet-and-individual-variation-on-intestinal-microbiota-composition-and-fermentation-products-in-obese-men/

Steve said...

Hi Grace

I will give Version C Psyllium + Inulin a try. Also, I am adding Neem capsules and Coconut oil three times a day.

I will let you know the results.

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Grace,

You say this about GDX:
"This progressive stool test will change modern medicine!"
That's great and all. But I think it is YOU that will change modern medicine.
You've got to be the most important person alive.

Sincerely
Regina

MG said...

You are one of my two favorite people relentlessly and selflessly helping those with auto immune issues(AS specifically in my case). The other is Dragon Slayer(site owner who is easily found in the forum section)from kickas.org.
He is the most knowledgeable person on Dr. Ebringer's work that I know of. He would have to be one of the most learned people on the planet when it comes to AS.
He is VERY pro abx and you are VERY anti abx. That would be the discussion of my dreams! hint hint ;)
I've made my decision but countless others could benefit from it.

Dr Wahls has had incredible success on a years long ketogenic diet but I keep reading from Richard Nikolay and Dr. Ayers that ketogenic is ONLY to be used in rare circumstances. ie epilepsy.

Chlamydia pneumonia has been implicated and detected in multiple MS and reactive arthritis patients. Would it also make sense that Cp feeds off of starch as well?

Your opinions on keto and Cp after your 5 part series?

I have AS and took the gdx 2200. No parasites/opportunistic bacteria or yeast/fungi(except sacharomyces)issues could be detected. Low streptomyces, reasonably low prevotella and low ph but it's not picking up on any known gut pathogens.

I stopped taking inulin supplements after reading from several different sources that Kleb.p feeds on it.
"Manufacturers claim that inulin/FOS specifically feeds only good bacteria. Unfortunately, this isn't reality. A good example is Klebsiella. Recent studies have shown that inulin/FOS encourages the growth of Klebsiella, a bacteria implicated in Ankylosing Spondylitis and in increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut)."

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/022356_inulin_food_ingredients.html##ixzz3GH2q22i0

Most lactobacillus supplements will have FOS and/or rice/potato starch.

I don't have the references to back it up but but I've read multiple times that Kp can feed off items containing lactose, as well.

MG


MG said...

Sorry, I should say that Dragon Slayer is "pro-abx ' in very specific situations, not just "pro-abx ' in general. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Ashwin, this is said with mucho respecto.
It would be really fantastic if you would write a few more posts, or give more detailed information. Maybe you feel as if you already have, but it would help us all if you were a tiny bit more vocal and more specific about all this. Especially for those of us who do have an autoimmune disorder, and don't always have the attention span to understand it very well, or read between the lines. Most like me have probably read a million bits of information and at times need something very concrete and doable. Clearly you were trying to bring attention to some of this, but perhaps it was said in a fairly quiet voice.

For example, when you write:
"I take a combination of ingredients to achieve high levels of Butyrate throughout the gut.(My Formula contains Large dose of Potato Starch & Wheat Bran and small amounts of Inulin, Fructooligosaccharide, Whole Psyllium seeds with husk intact, Glucomannan from Konjac, Pectin , Gum Arabic and Guar Gum. I also include the Herbs Neem and Turmeric in my recipe and take the Probiotic BIFILAC-HP (Clostridium Butyricum plus). I have only experienced good results."
-- Detailing exactly how much a large dose is would be really helpful. Plus of course how much of the pectin, gum arabic, and so on.

Also I would love to hear if YOU think RS is a prebiotic, or a colon food.
And I would love to hear more about all the other things YOU think about this subject.
:-)

Anonymous said...

Hi Dr. BG,

Thank you for the information and this blog.

I wanted to know if someone has Lupus or Rheumatoid Arthiritis, then what is the correct way to go about weeding and then seeding. Am asking because I am not clear about the use of Neem when it comes to having these conditions already present.
And I think I read somewhere here that probiotics to be taken if not immune compromised which I am taking to include these conditions.

Thanks,
PJ

Dr. B G said...

Steve~

What part of the 7 Steps are you following? Do you tolerate food and FODMAPS?


Regina BEAUTIFUL GUT GODDESS~

AWwwwww ur too sweet!! I'm not sure I deserve any accolades because I stand on bigger on shoulders ;) Like Tim Steele, Keith, Lepine, GDX, many gut researchers -- all that I'm very fortunate to know!



MG!
Dragon Slayer sounds so progressive and cool! What does he do for the fungi? Every case is co-infected with yeasts and candida...

We mess out our flora the minute we are born in hospitals.

We lose bifido, lacto, clostridia and the all important Bacteroides. Then Klebsiella overgrowths.... Our moms' channels of life are jacked, and/or we are C section (I was a twilight birth wtf) and tons of lame, sucky formula.

No, K pneum doesn't eat inulin. But K oxytoca, some strains, do -- and this one isn't as virulent. Very easy to 'crowd' out by seeding-weeding.

K pneumonia will respond to botanicals, antibiotics, combined with probiotics. Without probiotics (like Russian powered Lactobacillius, etc) then dysbiosis occurs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21560395

THis Russian study showed the awful dysbiosis from the antibiotic for K pneum related community-acquired pneumonia. "Results showed that adolescents with community-acquired pneumonia during standard antibiotic therapy indicated development of dysbiotic bowel disturbances in the form of reliable oppression of the bifidobacteria and laktoflora. Dysbiosis of the microbial associations are not conducive to proper implementation of immune and nutritional functions of the intestine that shows the imperfection of rehabilitation of patients with pneumonia according to the evaluation of SF-36 quality of life. "

I don't have a prob with abx use but typically it is not appropriate, combined with probiotics or consideration for weaker, less damaging botanicals.

Dr. B G said...

MG
(cont) keto is a temporary option and if someone's adrenal axis are compromised then it will worsen IP, intestinal permeability. You need anabolic and thyroid hormones for complete recovery of the gut lining. Immunity can be compromised as I'm sure you are aware if cortisol is dysregulated. Keto has a role for temporary restriction of offending foods however but can tip the other hormone out of balance which will impact the gut IMHO. Like an imbalanced diet with potato starch, keto will starve very vital populations of immuno protective organisms.

For any autoimmune disorder, the root causes need to be vetted. Terry Wahls has discussed mercury and other modern toxins. Everyone dealing with cancer and an autoimmune disorder needs to vet out their burden because that is typically why they were susceptible in the first place. The residual broken brain-gut or inflammasone-gut will never 100% recovery despite nice stools or a decent gut test

What does ur stool testing say about the symbionts
--lacto
--bifido
--Clostridia
--bacteroides

What does the urine testing reveal? The gut can still 'leak' despite perfect stool testing -- i see this ALL THE TIME. The Leakiness is what determines disease incl
--fat gain
--insulin resistance
--cancer risks: BREAST, PROSTATE, CRC etc
--inflammation
--fatty liver, elevated LFTS
--poor thyroid/adrenal function
--candida flares
--subsequent fatigue, fogginess, (again) fatness
--auto immunity etc

Dr. B G said...

PJ

It's a very integrated approach. Have you considered a consult with an expert to guide you? Every gut and every person'a genetics are unique and diff. No cookie cutter solution unfortunately. Paleo and the 7 steps will take u far but it's far more complicated than what I make it out to sound

leo delaplante said...

hi DR B G ,you refer to Klebsiella pneumonia as a pathogenic viper ,am i to assume that Klebsiella oxytoca is the same and is to be weeded,keep this great info coming,,,you are the best........

Anonymous said...

Dr,

Am sure that the experts here will not have any idea on what I am asking. Am also sure the stool tests you talk about are not available here (India).

PJ

Tim Steele said...
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Tim Steele said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dr. B G said...

Tim~

Thank you for deep thoughts -- the 'F' of FODMAPS could include 'FOOD' too! When I had severe SIFO/dysbiosis, even a glass of water made my belly bloat and scream. I think my gut back then was a carpet of denuded villi.

Gosh I do remember you saying this ' The other probiotics [prebiotics] (mucins, gums, inulin, FOS, etc...) are probably the determinates for the minor players or even very important keystone species that have yet to be identified.'

The gut terrain is like the new frontier or galaxy to be explored. Who are the keystones? WHY?? Where are they: mucosa, inner or outer mucus, lumen?? it is very exciting to be where we are today and doing what we are doing now whether we are just stupid plebs, microbiota researchers (hi AmGut! And uBIOME!), pharmacists (like Ashwin) or advanced biotech grad students with engineering backgrounds!!

Dr. B G said...

MG ~

More for ya -- in some Russian research (of course) they have some super powered Russian probiotics (probably cultured from some super powered Russian vagina I bet lol, like Natren and many other good brands).

These probiotics, like soil based probiotics, fight and manage out of control psychopathic Klebsiella.

We have to fortify the symbionts to eventually crowd unruly vipers to a lower and not pathogenic subpopulation. They're unescapable, no? Even the Burkina Faso kids had pathogens but compared to Euro modern kids, only a fraction. If you look at Tim's AmGut or uBiome -- he has almost no pathogens. His GDX shows no candida or yeasts either. This is a good gut. The old GDX won't show some of these little species that actually create massive havoc. The new one is imperfect but may show some of these as well as the important ancestral symbiotic CORE.

GDX stool testing also provides % and amount of butyrate and propionate. These are antifungal + antimicrobial! Get these UP!!!! No more antibiotics. Please forward the below to your Dragon Slayer lol

http://www.iasj.net/iasj?func=fulltext&aId=3828
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21333271



Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol. 2009 Mar-Apr;(2):85-9.
[Choice of probiotic for rational therapy of infection caused by Klebsiella in children].
[Article in Russian]
Gonchar NV et al

AIM:
To choose lactobacilli-contained probiotic for complex treatment of acute enteric infection caused by Klebsiella in infants.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
On the basis of bacteriological analysis the group consisting of 40 infants with acute enteric infection caused by Klebsiella was formed. Efficacy of three probiotic preparations--lactobacterin, vitaflor, and biobacton--was assessed depending on biological features of causative agents and contents of lactobacilli and bifidobacteria in obligate gut microflora. Intraspecies antagonistic characteristics of manufacturing strains of lactobacilli against 9 clinical isolates of K. pneumoniae and 8 strains of indigenous lactoflora, as well as interspecies antagonism between Klebsiella and probiotic and indigenous strains of lactoflora were studied.
RESULTS:
It was shown that complex therapy of Klebsiella infection in infants using vitaflor or biobacton promoted elimination of K. pneumoniae and restoration of indigenous microflora which became apparent in significant increase of titer of lactobacilli. In vitro maximal antagonism to K. pneumoniae was noted for vitaflor, lactobacterin and heteroenzyme autostrains of ill children's lactoflora. Contrantagonism to lactoflora was typical for slowly growing strains of Klebsiella.
CONCLUSION:
It is therapeutically rational to use vitaflor, which promotes rapid elimination of infectious agent, in initial phase of acute infection caused by Klebsiella, and biobacton, which increases the titers of indigenous lactoflora, in phase of convalescence.



Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol. 1981 Mar;(3):58-61.
[Interaction between Bifidobacterium bifidum, Proteus vulgaris, and Klebsiella pneumoniae 204 in the gastrointestinal tract of gnotobiotic chicks].
[Article in Russian]
Timoshko MA et al

Experiments on gnotobiont chickens indicated that the strains B. bifidum 1/85 phi, P. vulgaris F-30 and K. pneumoniae 204, when introduced simultaneously into the gastrointestinal tract in a single administration, proliferate there with the pronounced predominance of bifidobacteria. 6 additional administrations of B. bifidum 1/85 phi culture resulted in the complete suppression of microorganisms belonging to the genera Rroteus and Klebsiella as early as 10 days after the introduction of bifidobacteria. These data suggest that it is necessary to use B. bifidum 1/85 phi in cases of intestinal dysbacteriosis characterized by the predominance of microorganisms belonging to the genera Proteus and Klebsiella.

Dr. Art Ayers said...

Hi Dr. B.G.,
I was never very impressed with the molecular mimicry argument and I think recent work shows that the B27 link to As is directly through impact on gut flora. I don't think that antibodies were ever shown to bind to the same epitopes on B27 and a Klebsiella protein. I don't think that changes anything other than the explanation. Mimicry isn't integral. All that is needed for an autoimmune reaction is inflammation, Treg deficit and an appropriate immunogen.

JenRN said...

Ashwin Patel,

Thank you so much for your contributions on here.

What would you recommend for someone that has some sx of a connective tissue disease (ie: arthralgias, cold feet, positive antibody) but hasn't been diagnosed with anything yet.

Would the Neem and Bifilac be beneficial for that?

I am assuming they should hold off on the rs2 for a while.

I find these blog discussions fascinating but a bit above my head....

I guess I am just wondering what you would think is the best way for someone with those issues to even get started on a good path...



Thank you.

Dr. B G said...

Art,

Is gluten an immunogen? You were anti-gluten-propaganda before. What changed your mind, or did it not change?

MG said...

Yes, he's awesome! AS and especially iritis are awful! I've had some really tough moments but he's been there every time.

"Dragon Slayer sounds so progressive and cool! What does he do for the fungi?"
I am also worried about yeast overgrowth because this can be at the heart of the cause
(trigger) of AS in some cases that I am familiar with, and these do not respond very well
to the AS diets. Because of this, I try and fast several times yearly, and take an
occasional course of caprylic acid, oregano oil, colloidal silver, and crushed garlic.
Prolonged antibiotic usage is just as dangerous in causing candidiasis, as is steroid usage.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rrat7wt9t8qonf/ASprotocol2.pdf

In my case, the trigger was a chlamydial infection which is why I opted for the carter protocol(similar to the siram protocol). Many times the infection was detected in the synovial tissue which made me think that it's a problem outside of the gut and should be treated as such. The problem is that I shouldn't be making assumptions on matters I don't understand.

Thank you for the russian probx studies and for the info on Kp not consuming inulin.

I am prone to anxiety and mood swings and I was, in my Wife's words, "the crabbiest A-hole she's ever known" for my short two week stint in ketosis.

lacto= 4.5
bifido=3.2
clostridia=3.0
bacteroides=2.0

Total SCFA= 83
N-Butyrate= 20.1
N-Butyrate%= 24
Propionate%=Low 10%
Adipate=high 9.4 Suberate=very high 6.0 Isocitrate=very low 36 Picolinate=very low 2.5

PH = Low 5.8(I've been taking betaine hcl as per your link to Kresser and Wolf's protocol)
Elastace1 = Low 187

It's going to take me a little while to absorb the links you've provided but my SCFA results are pretty high, no? Knowing that Kp feeds off starches, what would you rec. for raising SCFA's and propionate levels? I'll try rolled oats after I stop flaring but black beans(soaked/sprouted, cooked for a long time and then cooled) send me into the worst kind of flares. I've been scared to go back and try any of its' family members.

I'm stopping my abx but so far have been following the regimen you posted on twitter for candida for 1 and a half months .http://www.townsendletter.com/June2012/candida0612.html

The plan was to take Nystatin and interphase plus + garden of life raw enzymes(and the probx etc) for the three months as prescribed. Dangeroso?

I've taken 1 and a half months of azith and rifampin. I have the pre-abx org acids and gdx stool test results, as above. I don't bring much to the table here other than test results and compliance. If there are any tests I can get to show the effects at various stages, please let me know as I'm happy to order them and have you(or anybody) share the results with your readers.

Dr. B G said...

Hey MG~

Take ur time. Candida may never go away if immunity sucks and hardware/heavy metals are still present (because candida presents biofilms on solid state material even better than our TISSUES). That is good you have some focus on the Candida. THx for watching on twitter -- the Townsend article is way way way ahead of its time.

You've come a long way. Your digestion sounds awful. the elastase sucks. The propionate is abysmal. Propionate is made from lactate which means your LABs (lacto and bifido) are probably nonfunctioning and possibly in the small intestines. Can you post for everyone the run down on the organic acids -- plz post the bacterial dysbiosis markers and the yeast/candida markers (arabinose, etc)? THx!!!

Propionate is special -- it is more antifungal or equally as butyrate. It should be double if not more than the butyrate. It provides satiety and improves gut motility. Your gut appears to have none or negligible amounts.

Do you have chlamydia auto-antibodies? If so what are the titers?

I think your plan is good! The betaine is good but have u considered add'l digestion adjuvants?? -- the gut goddesses Lola, Regina, Cat and I all had a spectacular discussion on the earlier thread (part 3) -- please consult lol.
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/10/dont-take-raw-resistant-starch-if-you.html

MG said...

Compounds of bacterial or yeast/fungal origin
benzoate <DL
hippurate 542
phenyacetate <DL
phenypropionate <DL
p-hydroxybenzoate 0.2
p-hydroxyphenylacetate 3
indican 27
tricarballylate <DL

l/ acidophillus/ gen .bacterial
D-Lactate 0.1

Clstrd spp
3.4-dihydroxyphenylpropionate <DL

yeast/fungal
d- aribinatol 8

I think those are the ones you requested?

Does it still make sense to supplement lacto+bifido if they'll potentially end up in the wrong place?

What is a sensible approach to raising propionate?

A Saccharomyces spp count of +3 in the gdx 2200 is of no concern, correct?


When a functional dr was looking over my bloodwork he said that he was confident I had a chlamydial load in my lower spine and eye synovium. When I saw him the next time, i asked how he knew from my blood test. He told me he didn't know but assumed so based on my history and it being the specific trigger of my AS. I spoke to another naturopath who agreed and away I went.

Anybody have any good articles on heavy metal chelation?

I read the comments from part 3. From now on it's muddy veggies, tons of different probiotics, bile acids and our apartment will soon become one huge stinky ferment.

I'll get on the hunt for that Russian Super Lacto powder too.

Dr. B G said...

MG~

Thanks!


Q: Does it still make sense to supplement lacto+bifido if they'll potentially end up in the wrong place? The lacto might and yours is already high enuf. Bifido will be fine if you can raise the inulin in your diet to feed it properly. Do you tolerate fermented foods or do they make you hurl or ill?

Q: What is a sensible approach to raising propionate? Get your bifido up.

Q: A Saccharomyces spp count of +3 in the gdx 2200 is of no concern, correct?
What probiotics were u taking prior to that urine organic acids, any S boulardii? The Saccharomyces may be irrelevant if you were, but if not then that is a buttload of yeasts.

The hippurate is higher than what I'd like. What do you think? It means some permeability.

Michelle Rick said...
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Michelle Rick said...
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Ashwin Patel said...

@JenRN
What would you recommend for someone that has some sx of a connective tissue disease (ie: arthralgias, cold feet, positive antibody) but hasn't been diagnosed with anything yet.

It would help to have a conclusive diagnosis and perhaps you should wait before initiating "treatment". However, your symptoms seem to suggest some type of Sclerosis where the Gut microflora may be implicated.
Neem with Bifilac-HP may help modulate the composition of the Gut. I would not initiate any RS or Raw Potato Starch until possible pathogen population has been reduced. It may also help to include the anti-inflammatory herbs Turmeric and Amla if you can obtain some.
Good luck.

MG said...

I have no issues with fermeted foods. I'll even start delving into my wife's fermented crab juice papaya salads and fermented shrimp pastes etc.

Just finished taking 4 heaping scoops of bifidobacterium bifidum and bif infantis from Natren( with inulin and whole psyllium husks and full fat yogurt)

Yes, I've been supplementing with primal defense(first ingredient being sacc boul) and sacc boul from jarrow.

Then hippurate is higher than what I'd like too. ;) I would imagine I have a pretty leaky gut and will really focus on eliminating candida and following the 7 steps(minus Step#2 for now) On the topic of candida, I did take lufenuron about 3 weeks ago. I didn't believe in "die off" until taking that stuff. From the 3rd to fifth days after taking it, I was in the fetal. I took it as a good sign but still fail the spit test. http://wellnessmama.com/2430/what-is-candida/
Mine consistently looks like an elaborate spider web hanging down from the surface of the water.
It's less pronounced after the first dose of lufe but still there.
I also test really high on both of these tests.
http://www.yeastconsulting.com/yeast-infection-questionnaire.html
http://www.yeastinfectionadvisor.com/yeastinfectionquestionnaire.html
I'll take the next 9 grams in about 3 weeks from now.

I'll continue my weekly infared saunas for heavy metals.

My guess is that this isn't the vitaflor from the Russian Super Lacto study but these must be some well cared for horses.

"Cavalor Vitaflor 365 offers a unique solution to optimize the intestinal flora, thus allowing maximum yield to be obtained from the feed. It prevents acidification of the large intestine, helps put on weight and is ideal for recovery after treatment with antibiotics."

http://www.cavalor.com/us-en/products/details/41/cavalor-vitaflor-365

I can't thank you enough, Dr. Liu. I've sent my email to you. If I can ever do anything for you just send out the MG signal. It's amazing how quick he'll be there.

Steve said...

Hi Grace

I do:
Step 1 Yes and sometimes I eat organic carrots without washing them.
Step 2 yes and I just made Homemade Hummus from dried organic chickpeas.
Step 3 Prescript-Assist and Primal Defense
Step 4 yes now switching to plan C
Step 5 about 20 mins
Step 6 Yes most of the time with Corn, wheat and soy. I eat eggs and grass fed dairy. GMO try to avoid but poor labeling on foods makes it hard.
Step 7 No

Do you tolerate food and FODMAPS: I guess I never have any gut discomfort.

JenRN said...

@Ashwin Patel,

It would help to have a conclusive diagnosis and perhaps you should wait before initiating "treatment"

Yes I see what you mean...I am just trying to make sure I am not making potential autoimmune issues worse.

When you say no RS do you mean rs3 from food sources too? I eat rice and potatoes but no gluten.

Also should the turmeric and Amla be in loose form from a health food store?

Thank you so much.

Anonymous said...

Hi Dr. B.G.

You mention "biofilms" from time to time and we wonder whether GDX 2200 would miss pathogens protected with biofilms.

How long does it take to form a biofilm?

Your reviews are the best.

Tom

Dr. B G said...

Tom,

I think opportunistic pathogens 'leak' despite their biofilms and will trace into DNA analysis of stools, but with that said their numbers can probably be small and still wreak havoc. Like any community, no? One lone psychopath has the potential to wreak massive chaos despite the good intentions of every one around?

The goal is to build a community. Don't let one symbiont fail and falter. When the tide rises, they all rise, no?



MG~!

Yes I rec'd ur awesome!

lufenuron -- not familiar with this. What do you do for the die off? Is there a way to reduce the dose? It sounds effective (too effective).

The cells of the gut and macrophages are taken over by yeasts etc. They need to be gradually crowded out by the community of happy and collaborative commensals. Keep up with the good commensals 'seeding'. I believe that will take you far. Hopefully the 'weeding' can be as nontoxic and minimal as possible as to not perturb or decimate the new growth symbionts that are trying to anchor and shift the entire community.

Is your wife Thai? Her sauces and dishes sound absolutely fantastic!! Is there a good fish sauce that is alive, raw fermented??

Dr. B G said...

Michelle~

Thanks for your comments and details. I hope many others see your pre- and later post-intervention improvements to learn more! Are you planning on going into medicine? If so, please let me know and I'd be happy to be active in further training for functional medicine! I think you have quite a discerning mind.

Were you on potato starch prior to the lab? Are you planning on doing also a urine OAT, like Organix or Nutri eval (or short Optimal NE which is super cheap and thorough)? You need to do complete the picture later.

I think you pointed all the profound wrong things
--poor digestion
--sibo/sifo (fungal overgrowhts -- yes -- related to your antibiotic courses and stress. stress is one of the worst things for human mind-guts!!)

So you know this post is for you on Prevotella overgrowths! Actually all parts 1-5 are applicable. We don't want to starve the ancestral core -- even pre-VLC your gut was probably not ideal because that is the standard in the modern age (yes blame mom!).

I think your plan is good! The probiotics esp bifido and SBOs, and version B of bionic fiber (or combo psyllium + inulin + GBF) are ideal for rebuilding the barrier. Avoiding potato starch would be key imho, if it were me, because it fails to feed the ancestral core completely and in fact will lower the core immunoprotective species by overfeeding a narrowly defined group (?vipers, the Prevotella and Bacteroides which is on the high end of normal range).

The digestive enzymes are good but have u considered add'l digestion adjuvants?? -- the gut goddesses Lola, Regina, Cat and I all had a spectacular discussion on the earlier thread (part 3) -- please consult lol.
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/10/dont-take-raw-resistant-starch-if-you.html

Dr. B G said...

Steve~
AWESOME!!

Ashwin Patel said...

JenRN
Sorry, I meant RS2 (Raw Potatom starch, Banana Starch,etc)
and yes, I mean whole (as opposed to extracts) Turmeric and Amla powders from the Grocers.

JenRN said...

@Ashwin Patel. Thanks. I thought that's what you meant. I will continue on with just the rs3 for now then.

Btw, I am looking on Amazon and see
Himalaya Pure Herbs Neem, Systemic Purifier, 60 Caplets, (Pack of 2). Is this correct?

Also I can't get Bifilac hp here so will have to substitute probiotic 3 AOR instead. Is that ok?

Thanks so much.

Anonymous said...

Dr. BG, Tim, Ashwin.....or anyone really. Ran across a link to a gut bug blog I had not seen yet, was not sure if you had. http://gutcritters.com/ If not, thought you might find some of his stuff of interest. Also wondering how informed he is. I think he sounds pretty up to date and informed, but as I am just educating myself, looking to others to reinforce my belief that this might be another good learning tool. I would be shocked if the micro-biome doesn't become HUGE in health care in the next 10 years. Actually, I will be extremely disappointed and even more cynical about the motives of the powers that be, namely, the drug companies and their lackeys. Thanks for all you guys do, this is amazing stuff, the implications so huge, and the help you give life saving and invaluable. SteveRN

MG said...

I got the lufenuron from here. I don't know if it's the most reputable or not but I took a stab.
http://shop.owndoc.com/product-list.php?antifungals-pg1-cid45.html

They rec'd not to take activated charcoal whilst taking it. I just avoided clays etc. for the same reason. I took chlorella as I've read it won't interfere with anything else. I just followed the instructions but it comes in powder form so yes, one should be able to spread/decrease the dosages. I'll take less next time I do it.

Yes, my Wife is Thai. And yes, her cooking is delicious ;) She grew up on an "organic" small farm with animals and TONS of exposure to dirt and non-sterilized water. No such thing as a 5 second rule(when your food hits the floor) in her household. 5 day rule maybe. She's never experienced diarrhea in her life! She could eat a live badger mother and its' baby and poop them out in the form of a bristol 4. I really hope to escape there for a 6 month stint but I have to get back to tolerating rice beforehand. I'm way too much of a white boy burden otherwise.

I use this fish sauce which is exactly what you're looking for( the product description on the bottle is really well done)
http://www.vitacost.com/productResults.aspx?ntk=products&ss=1&NttSR=1&Ntt=red%20boat%20fish%20sauce
but my Wife prefers the much less expensive Thai brand her family has always used.
http://www.amazon.com/Thai-Fish-Sauce-24-oz/dp/B001RMNAUM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413706267&sr=8-1&keywords=squid+brand+fish+sauce

My favorite is seasoned and grilled chicken thighs w/skin( or pork loin) cut into pieces and topped with tons of raw garlic, fresh chillies and green onions. The dip is simply lime juice,(can grate fine slivers of rhine if u like) fish sauce(to taste) and dried Thai chili flakes. *the thai chili flakes are kinda powdery and semi crushed if you can find them*

Unripe mangoes and papayas are a staple in Thailand. (usually dipped in salt) There must be a scientific explanation as to what they do for us nutritionally but I can't find much info at all. I say this because Ashwin Patel rec'd amla powder and the only thing that will suffice in place of green mangoes are indian gooseberries. We find the frozen ones in a supermarket nearby.

A million huge thank you's!

MG said...

brain fluff
. I say this because Ashwin Patel rec'd amla powder and the only thing that will suffice in place of green mangoes are indian gooseberries*when my Wife has a craving*

Michelle Rick said...
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Michelle Rick said...
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Michelle Rick said...

oh oh last thing for the night, your AHS14 presentation rocked. yay for poop fossils

Nick said...

Hello,

I'm hoping to understand how others might have ordered the Geneva test that Grace mentions above:

"My favorite test is the Genova Diagnostics 2200 Stool which was recently upgraded to include some of my 7 ancestral core species."

I didn't find a test by that name, but did find these - does one map to the 2200 Stool test:

Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis (CDSA)™
Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis 2.0™ (CDSA 2.0)
Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis 2.0™ without Parasitology
Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis/Parasitology™ (CDSA/P)
GI Effects® Comprehensive Profile - Stool

Also, I see that one needs a doctor to order the test. I'm curious how others have gotten their doctor to order it or if they are using a doctor from the site? If you are using a doctor from the site, do you find that you have to first visit the doctor?

Thanks you

Nick said...

I just noticed this on the Genova site, so this is the test:

GI Effects® Comprehensive Stool Profile* (2200)

Dr. B G said...

Michelle~

Yes I'm like you. Dad physician (surgeon). Got tons of antibiotics and Tylenol for every fever and sniffle, with the best heart and intentions.

Yes zoo zebras! Love your mind!! Thank you for your kind thoughts.

Would love to help out during any of the trainings. I have practitioner friends that have done the same -- I think the education and training is very good. Dallas at Whole9 and I have done the AFMCP through the IFM, Institute of Functional Medicine. Most was familiar but the environmental detox was excellent. This our main barrier to full health recovery and healing now.

You asked: "Additional adjuvants: meaning HCL pepsin, ox bile, bitters like on the discussion you pointed me to, to help with digestion until my small intestine is all shiny, clean again?" What works for you? I find these to be all very helpful for broken guts as GI support (sometimes taurine, lecithin and walking to move the MMC also). LIver and adrenal support (step 7) may be a missing link for many esp endurance athletes or moms.

"Would it change interventions considerably? Am I the only girl wanting urine testing for their 22nd b-day lol?? " Your tests are clear but for many they may not... I see cases with perfect Bristol 4 daily and no parasites/yeasts in stools, but the urine OAT will be f*kcered. They are leaking all over the place. The gut is supposed to be a closed system, from the engineering POV. This is why heart disease, obesity, mental illness/psychosis and cancers are exponentially on the rise. The subsequently inflammation and proteins/alcohols from yeasts and other gut 'vipers' clog everything.

The other ? was: 'On step 4, do you think there is value to taking the probiotics for a week or two to “seed” a bit before adding in bionic fiber? Liked the info you give about green banana flour so I’ll probably go that route plus Amazing Greens. Recommend additional NSP to a greens/ORAC powder or are these an either/or since theres some in the greens?' Either way. Seeding is really the key, but with a broken mucusal barrier, might be hard to seed with adequate microbial food. In studies synbiotics are ALWAYS more effective than either the probiotic or the prebiotic alone. Many discount the role of probiotics. Don't make that mistake! We need ancestral levels of bacteria and wild yeasts and currently we get only a fraction, if we're lucky. Find a farm. Volunteer in a healthy, organic garden! FARMACY rocks, just like you!!

Dr. B G said...

Nick

That's the one!!

Michelle Rick said...
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Michelle Rick said...
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Michelle Rick said...
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Dr. B G said...

Hey Michelle,

I think probiotics are great anytime but with meals makes sense as well since their favorite fuels are more readily available.

Several brands of probiotics have special new gastric protection and the capsules shouldn't be opened. Take whole.

Ashwin Patel and others have listed some of their fave fiber blends:
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2014/09/dont-take-resistant-starch-alone-and.html?showComment=1411486241805#c918502670682100245

Ashwin is like me -- a pharmacist! Unfortunately his comments were deleted at that site so you may've missed he insights. He questions, he reads science. He successfully helped reverse Crohn's in a family member.

I"ll post his list but keep in mind a couple of things - he has taken few pharmaceuticals and I believe grew up around African forests. He is healthy and takes SBO probiotics. His daily diet is very high in inulin rich foods and cooked-cooled RS3 beans, lentils and whole grains (I'd guestimate 50-60 g/d RS3 or more). One serving beans ~12-14g/half-cup:

Ashwin's Prebiotic fibre mix:
Potato Starch...................................20G
Gum Arabic.......................................5G
Psyllium Husk...................................5G
Guar Gum..........................................5G
Germinated Barley Food...................5G
Glucomannan (Konjac).....................5G
Inulin................................................1G
Fructooligosaccharide.....................1G
Galactooligosaccharide...................1G
Pectin...............................................1G

to this mix add One tablespoonful of Wheat Bran , Ginger and Polyphenol mix during processing.

Michelle Rick said...
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Dr. B G said...

Michelle

Excellent! When you grow up I hope you become a full fledged gut goddess in the manner you are becoming!

We need some enterobacter but as we age, get sick, lose bifido and soil probiotics, then we increase in the pathogenic enterobacter -- salmonella, shigella, yersinia, citrobacter, serratia, klebsiella, adhesive E coli and proteus. These are implicated in heart disease, obesity, diabetes, celiac, IBD, breast and colorectal cancer and all weestern diseases.

starch and raw RS2 feeds Klebsiella and probably some of the others. Unfortunately biohealth doesn't drill down. You could do GDX or uBIOME to figure some out.

have you heard the weeding podcast or reviewed what worked for myself? Did you read Ashwin Patel's wonderful comments on the other thread?

What were The quantity of symbionts? Lacto? Entero? Bifido? E coli?

These are vital to bulk up I believe. Good job! Hooray no Protozoa, helminths or other parasites. Yeast is something to consider as well. The probiotics and prebiotics are wonderful ANTIFUNGALS.


ballabolla said...

Ok, there is one thing unclear to me.
I puree my plantain with coconutmilk and th bake it for 10-15 mins.

Is it RS3 when colled?

ballabolla said...

cooled...

Michelle Rick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dr. B G said...

Michelle

Luv Sean but he and the others are early adopters ;) It's fine -- VLC is important but it will hurt the gut long term. I like the butyrate with PS, but again this hurts and maims the gut short and long term.

Better solutions exist. Targeted to what is going on is key -- like what you've done! Awesome gut grrrrl!!

-Prevotella spp. 4.9 E7 (high)
This is what I had/have. Raw potato starch causes me immunosuppression and in the last trial gave me horrific GERD/heartburn (sx gone now, gratefully).

Consider no RS2 when the starch-eating vipers are present and low B longum/symbionts. For me acid, pepsin, bile, bifido and other digestive support fix this. B-Prevotella and Bacteroides are our primordial co-evolutionary partners. And they eat everything! The problem with raw starches is that they ultra super fast ferment these -- this creates more overgrowths in the uppergut when that is where they are inappropriately.

Yeasts live alongside next to them in the uppergut when they trespass. Targeting both at the same time is key imho.

--Low symbionts. Bifido is sadly not fine. B longum is only 20% of total. I believe goal is 40-50%. Try increasing by 2-3 fold and I think you will see much success.

--Adhesive E coli -- viper! Probiotics -- soil and bifido -- can help squeeze it out.

Ruminococcus is part of clusters IV and XIVa. Don't worry -- these will grow back when the gut is healthier.

Do you have intolerance to inulin or acacia fiber? What is working for your gut?

Dr. B G said...

Balla

Some of it will be RS3. If you have good stomach acid, MORE OF IT WILL BE ;)

Michelle Rick said...
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Dr. B G said...

Michelle

Ur funny and observant. Yes ps and GBF alone without the diversity of whole foods and the spectrum of insoluble, soluble and viscous fiber increases mean transit time by 1/3 or more! For those with guts full of fecal carcinogens related to dysbiosis may see problems.

I think when we get the good and ancestral symbionts filling up the uppergut the way evolution intended, then we see massive health improvements as well as better gut-brain interactions.

B LONGUM, Roseburia and the soil probiotics are like the head and appendages of our guts since they are considered an organ on their own

I like Heathers and NOW. They are both organic

The stool mucosa associated bifido at not always reflected in the stools but if you are feeding inulin which is an available substrate to the microbiota, then be assured the ancestral bifido will grow ESP if your symptoms resolve. Sadly, what I observe is that RPS selects and overfeeds other hamster bifido, bacteroides, prevotella and rs2 eating vipers in marginal guts. The best place is after all the ancestral members are in place, the way that Ashwin Patel and others have gone about it. Feeding diverse fiber -- depending on nutrigenomics and whether ones ancestors evolved equatorially or in low carb scenarios like Native Americans or northern EuroAsia etc.

Recently a reader reported she is inulin tolerant now. These are awesome signs! For you and I, inulin can feed prevotella and bacteroides but I feel the benefits outside because bifido will perform and kick the pathogens off.

Michelle Rick said...
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Dr. B G said...

I love your thoughts and curiosity. Personally I harp on these modern factors because together synergistically they add up to create gut disruption. Individually they aren't a big deal. A high dose or long duration of antiparasitic botanicals may have similiar devastation on a vulnerable gut as a course of cipro would. Perhaps it's all context and how vulnerable a gut. We are so different from ancestral and rural societies. The hadza have 5- to 10- fold more diversity and species in their guts. Everywhere they live is poop! Lol. No alcohol hand cleansers or fluoride (except what's naturally occurring). And they have no western diseases-- cancer, heart disease, IBD, autoimmunity or celiac. Obviously their vipers are different -- poisonous snakes, starvation, malaria and sickle cell anemia etc

Sugar alcohols are all diff. Punch xylitol and microbiota into pubmed -- it has nice antifungal and antipathogen properties. It's great as a nasal spray for fungal and microbial overgrowths temporarily. They are FODMAPs so I'm not sure what amount is tolerated but likely individual based on each persons gut.

Michelle Rick said...
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Michelle Rick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ballabolla said...

After quitting PS and GBP, my stomach got quiet. My digestion was almost nonexistent. I also stopped taking P3 and PA. After 1 week ACV I started eating yellow plantains. Now another week later I started PA again, a little murmuring is back in my gut, my digestion is getting way better, I am getting stronger and FODMAPs do great!
As long as I keep my stomachacids good, things appear to improve.
A thing that is reduced but not gone is my itchy scalp and facial skin. Do you have suggestions for that?
Besides that I want to test soon, for which bugs/bacteria/digestion things should I ask my GP?
THANK YOU!!
- Saskia

Dr. B G said...

ballabolla/Saskia

http://restoretheflora.com/gut-guardian-podcast-episode-07-cracking-down-on-candida/

THe last 3-4 episodes on the GG podcasts are all centered on Candida and opportunistic pathogens. Part of the problem of course is acid in the upper gut (the lack of) due to dysbiosis. That is wonderful you are seeing results with ACV. Are you using fermented, raw ACV which has a scoby like kombucha and probiotics? Maybe some of the good wild yeasts and microbes are seeding and helping the upper gut as well!

I love hearing about more robust guts that can digest all of nature's food and bounty incl FODMAPS!!

Sadly the tests I use are not available to mainstream GPs unless they sign up -- very easy. Have them contact Genova, Biohealth, Doctor's data, Great plains, etc directly and the acct is usually set up within hours.



MICHELLE~!

Yes like you I notice mental clarity the very next morning ;) (then I notice muscle cramps because I'm not so hot at replenishing my lost trace minerals and mag! lol I was the half marathoner who never did electrolyte replacements, stupud)

I'm not familiar with Metal-free; so many good and excellent products actually. Probiotics also chelate and safely remove heavy metals.

"modern medicine has not established firmly even the possibility that constant toxic drip of mercury from the mouth down is NO bueno" I could not agree more. Dentists are starting to get it but the AMA and others would have to admit 'fault' so until the MDs are ill and burdened themselves (or their precious children) we shall not see changes. Mark Hyman MD gave himself autism in China, and it was related to mercury (coal burning that contains mercury and arsenic, GST variant which prevents heavy metal elimination, etc). So as one of the leaders of functional medicine he is keenly aware and gradually influencing mainstream imho.

Google 'mark hyman mercury' for some great resources that I like

Really I have no idea how/why/when fiber got demonized in the paleosphere when as you discussed it has such great clinical and ancestral benefits. My parents grew up eating a lot of vegetables and thus fiber (eg we grew up poor, as they were Taiwanese immigrants)! Even on paleo, I used a lot of Metamucil (love the orange Tang flavor, this is before your young time LOL -- Tang was a mixed koolaid-like powder that came out in the 70s around the time of space travel )

Metamucil does great stuff -- lowers body fat, improves diabetes and blood sugars, improves cholesterol and triglycerides, improves IBS both IBS-C or IBS-D, blah balh blah -- like all fiber, as you mentioned. All fiber should improve metabolic pathways because they secrete SCFAs which potently bind GPR41/43, so it is quite weird and odd that RS2 doesn't have these benefits at all (though enuf butyrate; gram for gram AX and GOS/FOS give more butyrate compared to RS2).

The RS3 epidemiology studies for colorectal cancer and any disease of industrialized nations are quite clear -- whole food fiber is good for all humans and it feeds the entire gut, not just a narrow band of characters.

When we have wonderful and ancestral levels of gastric acidity and LAB-acid producing flora in the upper gut, we make all starch resistant, no? This is the modern conundrum. PHD Paul Jaminet started the revolution -- re-introducing and saving the fate of starches. Thank goodness for Paul! Sisson has a great carb chart going up to 150 grams per day of carbs but if considering high fiber RS3-enriched starches, I certainly it can go up higher to 200 g/day no problem (and fixing gastric acidity and SIBO/SIFO). Tide is turning ;) You are the beginning of the wave! Thank you for all of your comments and thoughts!!

ballabolla said...

I have only one TMI question left...
Most probably due to the MS the function/reflex of the anal sphincter has dissapeared.

So I cant functionally poop...

I currently use about 5-10ml liquid glycerion with an anal catheter. But that caused haemmoroids, so I now do 1x a small water enema and 1x the glycerin... But the water doent help...

Any tips?

Besides that, I did a 23andme test and a lot of gene mutations popped up... So... What now?

ballabolla said...

ACV with the mother CHECK

I have a kombucha SCOBY, stopped kombucha because I was sensitive on histamines. Would it be a plan to start the kombucha again? Oh they are talking about it now on the pc...

ballabolla said...

Ok, Genova will be available. Which test would you advise me?

Dr. B G said...

GDX (genova diagnostics)
2200 stool
ONE urine (or Nutrieval (blood/urine) or Organix comprehensive (urine))

ballabolla said...

They are not available yet, so they are on my 2015 wishlist. Thank you. For now prescript assist, yellow plantains and FODMAPs!

I would like to add tapioca starch back in my diet, but am in serious doubt sinsce it is a good RS source... What would you advise me in this?

Dr. B G said...

If you can tolerate ripe plantains and fodmaps, you've made progress. My goal is that people may even eat small amounts of gluten if they want without living in an unrealistic bubble. Work on the lean microbiota -- Bifidobacteria LONGUM, Roseburia/XIVa and Akkermansia -- these will give you the biggest bang for your buck. Prescript assist is wonderful because it retrains Roseburia and other Clostridia clusters to digest well. B LONGUM does as well

Tapioca starch is high dose Rs2. Avoiding it will allow the above flora to flourish and restore

ballabolla said...

The yellow/blackish plantains and FODMAPs are digested very well, no gassing, pain or explosive bowels anymore.
Tapioca is not something to reintroduce then.

What about kombucha or is it better to wait for the test?

And next is upping my RS3! A big problem is me following the auto immune protocol quite strict. I am reluctant to just try... Any suggestions here?

Dr. B G said...

Saskia

Hopefully as your gut expands the ancestral core of probiotics/flora, your gut can digest a wider range of food without hyper-reactivity! For me the soil and bifido. longum probiotics (and Matt Pepin -- my podcast show co-host) are able to digest gluten and dairy again. Starches came first!

Re-seed and consider that we are so lucky that the most ancestral core, B longum is available commercially. Also there are a myriad of strategies to bolster and maintain their populations in the gut
--diverse fiber (nearly all raise it except RS2 WHICH LOWERS AND SUPPRESSES IT)
--probiotics
--psyllium, whole grains, inulin, GOS, yacon, sunchokes, version A and B of bionic fiber
--etc

Hang in there!

ballabolla said...

Would this be a good one to take?
http://www.iherb.com/product-reviews/Life-Extension-Bifido-GI-Balance-60-Veggie-Caps/43020/?p=1&fr=5

ballabolla said...

And instead of the horror of peeling sunchokes, would regular artichoke hearts work too?

Dr. B G said...

balla,

I eat the whole sunchoke ;) why would you waste it? Yes -- that's a great b longum!

Renew BifidoMax (needs refrigeration) is good for the 'whole community' of bifido and good lacto.

ballabolla said...

OK, i'll try it whole!
The refridgerated kind is hard/not available here in Holland.
I am looking in to a suitable bionic fiber for the AIP, i don't want to mess with it yet...
What about VERSION B [the 'FAT BURNING' BIONIC VERSION]: Inulin 1-2 TBS + Acacia Gum 1 TBS (or Green banana flour 1 TBS ) + high ORAC green powder in 2 cups water
I cant get the high ORAC powder here, what could be a replacement?

ballabolla said...

Again a question from me. Am cooking breakfast now, 1 slices yellow+ black plantain is a soufledish with coconutmilk in the oven. Would RS3 be present if I cool it and then eat it? That would be really nice...