Saturday, November 16, 2013

HOW TO CURE SIBO, Small Intestinal Bowel Overgrowth: Step #3 Eat Soil-Based Probiotics (Guest Post: Tim/TATER)

Step #3:  Soil-based probiotic 1-2 daily if not severely immune compromised (Bacillus licheniformis, Clostridium butyricum, etc)

Or eat soil-based organisms (SBOs) from ancestrally prepared fermented foods: KOREAN PEPPER PASTE (GOCHUJANG), Thai shrimp paste, natto, fermented black beans, etc.

See prior animal pharm: Kochujang, [B licheniformis, B subtilis] fermented soybean-based red pepper paste, decreases visceral fat and improves blood lipid profiles in overweight adults



B pumilus

Guest Post: Tim/Tater

Is everybody still with us?

Today we'd like to talk about step 3 in Dr. BG's 7-Steps Paleo* Gastro IQ SIBO Protocol.  I came here as a bit of a know-it-all on resistant starch, but quickly realized that while RS was somewhat of a missing-link on a paleo diet, soil-based organisms (SBOs) are missing even more-so.  Luckily, combining RS and SBOs is the quickest route to restoring harmony in the gut.  In a few email exchanges with Dr. BG, she mentioned SBOs several times.  I was totally unfamiliar with the term.   I thought to myself, 'wow--she is so dumb, she can't even spell 'SIBO'.  Boy was I in for a surprise!  After sending me 200 links to read, I quickly became a believer in Soil Based Organisms.  

Also known as Homeostatic Soil Organisms (HSOs), these microbes have been flying under the radar for decades.  All throughout our evolutionary history, SBOs were there with us.  When we started cleverly sanitizing our hands, sterilizing our eating utensils, and homogenizing everything we ate SBOs were no longer our faithful ally.  
L plantarium
Soil Based Organisms are microbes which normally live in dirt, but can also live happily in our digestive tract.  Approximately 30 different strains have been successfully isolated and are commonly put into probiotic supplements.  There are hundreds of articles available concerning SBOs, but most of them are advertisements from the supplement industry designed to sell you their favorite formulations.  I managed to find a few papers that were reviewed by the National Institute of Health such as this one on SBOs and Immune Function.  The article describes using SBOs to successfully treat Chronic Fatigue System and cancers and they had "...proven successful in restarting the immune systems of persons with allergies, lung cancer and TB."  

clinical study was done with 25 sufferers of IBS using a commercial SBO probiotic.  The study concluded: " This study identified 3 subsyndromic factors of IBS: general ill feelings/nausea, indigestion/flatulence, and colitis. In this methodologically oriented double-blind study in patients with IBS, combined probiotic-prebiotic treatment with Prescript-Assist was associated with significant reductions in these factors."  

I looked at the formulations of several SBO supplements recommended by Dr. BG and found they all contained a variety of microbes.  The first one I looked at is called Probiotic-3 from iHerb.  It contains Streptococcus faecalisClostridium butyricum, and Bacillus mesentericus.  Each one of these are well known probiotics found in the soil and in humans and convey protective properties when in the human digestive tract.  


S faecalis

WHOA!  HOLD ON...Dr. BG wants us to swallow a pill containing Streptococcus faecalis?  [Grace: YESSSS]  It's commonly found in 'diseased teeth needing or having had root canal treatment' and 'Some diseases caused E. Faecalis are endocarditis..., urinary tract infections, pneumonia or meningitis.'  WTF?  Well, it turns out that this microbe is also a powerful 'lactic acid [producing ] bacteria and it can help reduce symptoms when a person is lactose intolerant. The products created with this bacteria are useful for clearing diarrhea and for stimulating the immune system. Products fermented with this bacteria help to balance the intestinal microflora.'  Almost every one of the SBOs has a similar story!  OK, maybe Dr. BG is not totally crazy, but the jury is still out.   [Grace: Demented, no debate~!]

(NOTE: this is not an advertisement!)
Let's look at another supplement, Primal Defense, even though it's called 'Primal', I don't think Mark Sisson is behind it because his wonderful product is Primal Flora (see below link) which contains an SBO Bacillus Coagulans.  Primal Defense (new formulation) is touted by the manufacturer as "12 species of probiotics and Homeostatic Soil Organisms (HSOs)" This probiotic powder contains these 13 strains (the last one is a yeast).  Click the links to learn more:

Lactobacillus acidophilusLactobacillus caseiBifidobacterium longum
Lactobacillus rhamnosusLactobacillus brevisBacillus subtilis
Lactobacillus salivariusBifidobacterium bifidumSaccharomyces boulardii
Lactobacillus plantarumBifidobacterium breve
Lactobacillus paracaseiBifidobacterium lactis

If anyone is as interested in gut microbes as Dr. BG and I, please click each link above...these are links that I personally searched for, they were not hand-fed to me by manufacturer.   For instance, the link on Lactobacillus paracasei will lead you to an article by the American Society for Microbiology concerning this microbe and it's relationship to mucosal immune response.  I will leave it to you to look into these, as each one alone could fill several blogs!

Here is the takeaway for this blog:  If you are severely immune-compromised, do not take any probiotics.  They are alive. Like a live (attenuated) vaccine, probiotics are contraindicated in a severely immune-compromised individual.

If not, and you want to treat SIBO or just improve your gut microbiome, consider taking supplements like these in your therapeutic plan along with RS-rich foods and RS-rich potato starch (bionic fiber):  

Probiotic-3
Primal Defense
Prescript Assist
MegaSpore
Body Biotic 
Primal Flora


[Disclaimer:  We have no financial affiliations with any of the above]

There is no magic in using these brands, but the supplement you choose should  have a similar composition.  These supplements don't need to be taken for life, just until you kick-start your gut flora--when properly fed, these microbes will set up shop and help keep you healthy and happy.  Proper feeding of microbes relies on resistant starch and some other prebiotics we will talk about next...

37 comments:

Naomi Devlin said...

Look forward to your article on pre-biotics. In my experience, formulas containing these tend to exacerbate the reflux symptoms of SIBO.

Totally on board with the soil bacteria though! I try to encourage consumption of foods fermented with soil bacteria such as Natto, kimchi and sauerkraut rather than large doses of probiotics. As some people experience huge die off crises from high dose probiotics.

X x x

The Natural said...

Hi Tim,
I have read some where else(maybe on FTA) that pro-biotics in supplement form may not make it past the harsh acidic environment present in our stomachs. Even if they do, only a fraction of them make it to the gut. What is your take on this. Is it even a valid concern? Do enteric coated pro-biotics have a better shot at making it past the stomach? Or as suggested in FTA, should they be taken along with RS so the they can hitch a ride to the distal gut by attaching themselves to the RS?

Another question I have is, could we introduce these SBO to the fermenting media so we could get them from the foods instead of in a pill form?(such as the water used to soak the beans, or just throw a capsule in the sauerkraut or Russian Beet Kvass while they are fermenting)

Thanks for all the links on SBO...there goes my weekend ;-)

BTW, I cannot see the article when I click on the SBO Improve Immune Function (Pubmed) link you provided in this article.

T-Nat

Dr. B G said...

Naomi,

Thanks for your comments. I agree -- prebiotics can exacerbate symptoms depending on what organisms are growing in the small intestines and to what degree. I certainly experienced that! Even 'safe' vegetables made me bloated. When the 'load' of overgrowths is that high, then I believe a course or two charcoal/betonite clay should help lower the burden. If not then consideration for parasite, protozoa or pathogenic overgrowth herbal treatments is necessary.

The SBO are super effective at killing off candida. They are also bionic BIOFILM BUSTERS. ;) This is so crucial as these growths live behind a heavy fortress of slimy matrixes that our immune system cannot reach.


T-Nat,

The shelf stable spore ones should make it past natural environments like the acidic gastric pH. Also those with SIBO often have more of an alkaline stomach, so no problem LOL. The SBO are not fragile.

We think alike! I've already fermented my kraut with C butyricum and B lichineformis but honestly (Tim and I had this dicussion) really there is no evidence they would ferment and thrive there.

From my research the SBO strains are found Korean ferments of soybeans. Traditional kim chee is often made with raw squid or other seafood which may mimic an organic protein/fat substrate (similar to soy) that may support SBO strains, I strongly suspect. Kraut with bits of Stinky Flipper, anybody?

Have fun!

Here's that fun article (it's a fun tertiary source)
http://www.aegis.org/DisplayContent/DisplayContent.aspx?sectionID=326890

Posit Health News. 1998 Spring;(No 16):16-8.

SRL 172, a protein derived from a soil-based organism, is advertised for being able to restart the immune systems of persons with allergies, lung cancer, and tuberculosis. SRL 172 also appears to shift the cytokine profile in persons with Gulf War Syndrome and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome from TH2 back to the more effective TH1 profile. One patient reports improved DTH skin responses to topical DNCB after using Nature's Biotics Soil-based Organisms (SBOs). There also appeared to be improved immunity response indicating a shift from a weaker TH2 to a TH1 cytokine profile. The patient explains his successful use of SBOs and reveals that all but 1 out of 100 other patients who have used the product for a variety of ailments cite successful outcomes. Among the ailments whose symptoms the SBOs have helped relieve are foot sores from diabetes, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, insomnia, and genital herpes. Recent use of SBOs by HIV-infected patients has had positive results in energy and weight gain and improvements in some types of chronic conditions indicating an improvement of cell mediated immunity and antibody production.

*Fatigue Syndrome, Chronic/IMMUNOLOGY *Persian Gulf Syndrome/IMMUNOLOGY *Soil Microbiology *Th1 Cells/IMMUNOLOGY *Th2 Cells/IMMUNOLOGY

g

Dr. B G said...

T-Nat ~~ Don't want to make your eyes glaze over but SRL 172 is cool stuff, it's the protein from a soil based organism known as saprophytic mycobacteria. It enhances success in chemotherapy oncology protocols. Here is a Phase II trial and III trial, respectively.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10970684
http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/6/906.full

Have you read the Old Friends theory about our co-evolutionary friends, the saprophytic mycobacteria? CUUUL STUFF.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632706/

g

The Natural said...

Dr. Grace, Thank you so much for the quick reply and the links you shared.

I posted this comment for you on another post about charcoal. Could you please give me your take on charcoal?

Dr. B G,
Your mentioning of the clay and charcoal in the comments above caught my attention. A while ago, I followed a protocol that recommends fiber + charcoal + bunch of supplements.
The idea behind the protocol was to get rid of any excess estrogen with the help of DIM (an extract from cruciferous veg like broccoli) then flush out the free estrogen and other toxins from your system with 1T x 3 a day + lime juice and charcoal before bed. After this phase 1 for a week, super saturate your body with some vitamins and minerals. I felt very good within the first week and the first positive sign was the my eyes stopped hurting and vision improved. However, I could not tell if the positive effects were due to caffeine elimination or fiber increase or activated charcoal so I never repeated this protocol as it was quite an ordeal to drink a lot of fiber and charcoal before bed time.

Anyway, I was just wondering how you used charcoal and to treat what? What were your results? Were you able to pin point any of your results specifically to charcoal?

I have a lot of charcoal sitting around and would love to put it to good use!

PS: I will email you in a few days about the GI FX and ONE testing. Like I said, I will have to wait until after Thanksgiving to move forward with that.

Tim Steele said...

Just so everyone knows, Grace is really the brains behind this operation! I just happen to have spare time to write endlessly about the stuff I love. Maybe if Grace would move to Alaska and hole-up in a dark cabin with nothing but the internet to keep her company, she'd have more time to blog!

Anyway, most of this post was from her answers to my incessant questions she has been so kind to patiently answer. I had seriously never even heard about soil-based probiotic supplements before a couple weeks ago, even though they were probably the biggest part of my recovery from a completely ruined gut.

My experience with SBOs was a natural one. I grow a large garden and all through the growing season, I eat stuff straight from the dirt, barely washed if at all. Grace always teases me about loving dirty carrots, but they are covered in SBOs. I'm not sure if supermarket veggies have many SBOs, my thought is that they don't, at least not a complete, natural complement. When Grace pitched me the idea of SBO supplements, it just made so much sense.

I'm glad that you guys are clicking links and reading on your own, this is fascinating research!

THE NATURAL - Yes, I think that taking pre- and pro-biotics together enhances survival rates. If Grace doesn't tire of me butting in on her turf, I'll write a bit about the protective effect of RS. Lots and lots of money is being spent by the supplement industry to find ways to increase survival of probiotics, both on the shelf and in the body--all their attempts involve encapsulating the probiotics in (or with) resistant starch.




Tim Steele said...

Naomi - I think you will see that by adding a big burst of RS to the equation, the die-off you mentioned does not happen. Tons of studies on what happens when RS is introduced...a gradual shift in the composition of gut flora favoring the beneficial (ie. butyrate producing) bacteria occurs of a 3-4 week period, slowly crowding out the pathogens. This isn't like the nasty 'cleanses' or de-tox protocols. This is all about creating an environment where beneficial bacteria can thrive and do what they are supposed to do.

I think you will also be surprised if you try potato starch for a prebiotic. Most prebiotic mixtures contain nothing but inulin and oligosaccharides which feed more than beneficial microbes and ferment into things besides butyrate. Not saying these are BAD prebiotics, just saying they need some RS to even things out.

I've never been a believer in mega supplements, either. This SIBO series is mainly aimed at cutting the throat of a seriously degraded gut microbiome that favors pathogens and overgrowth. If you have a fairly robust gut and want to bolster it further, you can do all of the things we are discussing with real foods.

Keith Bell said...

Particularly interesting is Probiotic-3 as this appears to be the only product on the shelf containing butyric-belching clostridium. Might these clostridium clusters (IV, etc.) be the underlying beauty behind success of fecal transplant? I believe butyric acid explains the French Paradox and possibly longevity (one strain of clostridium was found 15x higher in centenarians). Clostridium has a nasty reputation due to botulism and C. diff, but this is a large family of microbes with taxonomy still up in the air regarding gram-negative vs. gram-positive status.

Here's some recent science, rationale for clostridium based-probiotics, maybe the next best thing to the new pills made with human feces. It's about IL-10 producing macrophages protecting against colitis via Treg cells:
https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/abstract/S1931-3128(13)00196-0?
switch=standard

This still newer research illustrates how the process works via the clostridium's butryric acid in producing Treg cells:
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-11-fatty-acid-gut-bacteria-boosts.html

Treg cell deficiency no more! But why are so many people apparently deficiency? What happened to their good clostridium?

1) They were born imbalanced from imbalanced mothers, a matter of poor microbial predisposition. Colonization begins in the womb, yet modern science still largely believes it takes place during the birthing process without a lick of evidence. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/29/science/human-microbiome-may-be-seeded-before-birth.html?_r=1&

2) Vaccination and antibiotic abuse. There are no comprehensive studies about collateral damage to flora by vaccination. Can you say vaccine injury? Vaccine-induced autism, a gut-brain phenomenon?

3) Toxic pollution in air soil and water. Mercury pollution is a perfect example where some microbes are sensitive (certain clostridium strains, gram-positive lactobacillus and bifidobacteria), allowing resistant gram-negaitves to flourish (e. coli, "bad" clostridium clusters) along with rampant, opportunistic fungal overgrowth seen in every major disease, both physical and mental illness.

Mercury adjuvants in vaccines may have similar effect in infants, allowing mercury-resistant microbes to flourish. This new molecular study about earthworms details flora shift possibly consistent with known flora imbalances in autism. Many types of bacteria are known to be resistant to mercury, studied for use in environmental remediation. But other microbes are sensitive to mercury. Clostridia known high in autism may have mercury-resistant clusters (via hydrogen sulfide), but also sensitive clusters crucial for balance, such as the cluster IV butyrate producers. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0061215

Tim Steele said...

Keith - Cool, a fellow gut bug junkie!

The stuff with Tregs is interesting, I'm amazed how much is being written about gut microbe physiology lately. Plus, with newer, cheaper ways to identify individual microbes, it's no longer guess-work. I have a feeling this will all get sorted out soon.

I like what you said about Clostridium. It does seem to be one that makes a huge difference. Have you read much about RS co-feeders and keystone species?

Good reading: http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v6/n8/full/ismej20124a.html

r. bromii has been identified as a keystone species for RS fermentation. Without it, RS does nothing, but when present it breaks it down so the other microbes can use it.

From what I gather, r. bromii is one of the main gut microbes that everyone should have plenty of. A lack of bromii is seen in Crohn's and other bowel diseases.

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3345969/

..."it was concluded that cross-feeding between Ruminoccus bromii and Eubacterium rectale occurred, wherein R. bromii produced acetate, which was subsequently converted to butyrate by E. rectale."

And from: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ibd.21436/full

"Recently, Bifidobacterium longum and “Oscillospira sp.,” a genus close to O. valericigenes, were shown to grow cooperatively; the exopolysaccharides produced by B. longum were associated with the increased abundance of “Oscillospira sp.” in the human GI tract.31 Our study also confirmed that F. prausnitzii, recently shown to produce antiinflammatory factors, was present in lower abundance in CD.18, 32 Furthermore another member of the C. leptum group, R. bromii, was reduced in subjects with inflammation."

Thanks for your great comments! Don't think for a second that Grace and I know everything...we don't. (well, maybe Grace does, I don't)

Keith Bell said...

Fascinating stuff, Tim. No, I don't know much at all until now about RS co-feeders and keystone species, but that paper you shared would make a lovely audio book for that certain someone.

Interesting to note that Ruminoccus bromii and Eubacterium rectale are both clostridial species. As my mom used to say quite often, "It takes two to tango."

Where are the clostridia? And where are the lactobacillus and bifidobacteria which would normally control fungi?

The Hygiene Hypothesis can KMBA as it promotes poor sanitation, giving a huge pass to the idea that it's ok to defecate in water. In wastewater treatment we trust. But the activated sludge process purposely multiplies ciliate protozoans to reduce bacteria, making sludge legal for disposal. What happens when these voracious protozoans find their way to our livers and intestines? Oops.

Kate said...

I'm wondering if I bought some of the Korean pepper paste Dr. BG covered in a previous post, would that be a viable source of b. lichenformis?

Tim Steele said...

Kate - I think the Korean Pepper Paste and all fermented foods, would be poor sources of B. Lichenformus. When foods ferment, especially via lactic acid fermentation, the bacteria responsible for this create an environment that is extremely hostile to any other bacteria--that is how fermenting aids in preserving food.

That said, I'd guess the only natural place to find b. lichenformis would be dirty veggies and licking ducks (I'm not making that last one up!).

Here is a description of it:
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bacillus_licheniformis

Once again, reading this will make you think Grace has gone completely mad!

Kate said...

Ha, Ha, Tater, I think I'll pass on licking ducks, although I do occasionally see a Mallard hereabouts. I ask, because I believe only 2 of the listed probiotics in your post contain lichenformis, body biotic and megaspore, and the latter is only available through medical professionals. I already have some Prescript Assist, but am wondering if lichenformis might be the key to rein in the gas.

Tim Steele said...

Kate - You said "but am wondering if lichenformis might be the key to rein in the gas."

I wouldn't put much hope in that thought. I think if you provide a good environment for gut microbe growth, everything will fall into place. Lichenformis is a very common strain, but never a huge part of anyone's microbiome--just like a celebrity extra in a movie.

The thing that controls gas best is crowding out the pathogens with beneficial microbes. This just takes time and diligence--eat all the foods we have been talking about, stay away from antibiotics, and be very consistent about your diet. If you do all this and don't see pretty big changes in 3-4 weeks, look into charcoal and clay, if that still does nothing, you have some serious problems--you need to get stool analyzed to find out what is going on--h.pylori or some other pathogen may be keeping you down, need to get rid of it with meds if need be. Try the easy stuff first--potato starch, psyllium, anti-oxidants, yogurt, sauerkraut, kimchee, soil-based probiotiocs, other probiotics, eliminate wheat, oil, or other allergens. If that fails, pull our the big guns.

Kate said...

Tim Thanks, not to worry. Its not a huge problem, I think I am slowy getting it under control. I've been pretty strict with the PHD for two years now. I think my diet is pretty dialed in, except fermented foods give me big headaches, even migraines. That is the main reason I began this admittedly speculative foray into gut remodeling. I have taken various amounts of potato starch since June, and have been experimenting with various probiotics. SBOs are definitely helpful. Even if I never solve the headache issue, RS is worth it for me because of excellent TMI and terrific energy levels. I read over at Kresser's blog that you received your American Gut Project results. Congrats! Sounds like you are in good shape. I was slow to take my sample and return it, but am looking forward to getting results as well.

Tim Steele said...

Ahhh, Kate! I was trying to remember I was talking to about the American Gut Project recently...it was you.

I take back what i said, I think it is definitely worthwhile. You have to do a lot of sleuthing when you get your results back, they just list what you have with no explanation, but it is a very complete report. For instance, in my wife's sample, it showed no bifidobacteria, and in mine the bifido was the most represented bacteria--that is a major find! Everyone is supposed to have lots of bifido. It's in like every probiotic on the market. Of course, she doesn't like to take probiotics--says they make her feel ill. Well, hell, it's probably all the pathogens trying to fight it off--like the Nazis on D-Day in Normandy. So, that gives us a good place to start with her, lots of bifido probiotics! This has really made her take notice and she's now getting interested in getting her gut in order. I will write more later, probably more than you want to hear!

The Natural said...

Tim,
Can't wait to read about your American Gut Project results.

Another question for you; My son is scheduled for a minor surgery next week. I am sure the docs will be giving him a lot a antibiotics. What would you suggest I do proactively to protect his gut bacteria from getting destroyed by the antibiotics. If I just wanted to put him on one probiotic - which one would that be? He is 12.

T-nat

Tim Steele said...

T-Nat - Put me on the spot much?

Just kidding. If I had to take abx, I would definitely be eating yogurt mixed with 1-2TBS of potato starch and a bit of psyllium 2-3 times a day. And not crappy Dannon Sugar Yogurt, but some really good greek yogurt.

If he is in otherwise good health, this will probably be enough. Get him to eat some sauerkraut and kimchee if he likes that kind of food (if not, teach him to like it!).

Truthfully, I doubt he needs any probiotic pills. Kids are so tough and resilient. Get him eating good stuff and outside playing in the dirt as soon as possible. Maybe Grace will have a different opinion.

The Natural said...

Thanks Tim.
We make yogurt at home and have a lot of PS. So we are all set!

Jason said...

Hi!

I love this blog and I think these series on SIBO are really important

I have some serious histamine intolerance AND - I suspect- some IBS/SIBO.

Having histamine intolerance means that I react strongly to fermented (fatigued, migraine, hives) foods and to nightshades like potatoes and lentils. Tomatoes and Spinach in green powders like the one you recommend are also causing me some reactions.


What can I do to get rid of at least one of the two problems?

Thank you!!

Tim Steele said...

Jason - All I can say is to eat the foods you can and take probiotics containing the soil-based organisms and bifido species for a while. If you are afraid to try potato starch, use dried green plantains, green bananas, plantain flour, and as many of the RS rich foods we have discussed that you can tolerate.

It's good you know your triggers! Avoid them at all costs!

Dr. B G said...

Jason,

Any further questions? Would love to hear your progress and thoughts later


Kate,

Did you see Mark's Daily Apply on fermented foods?http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-wonderful-pungent-world-of-asian-fermented-condiments-and-why-you-should-visit/

If you buy the fermented Gochujang or other sources that are made the ancestral way and without perservatives, I believe you'll be getting a great source of B licheniformis. It is a spore so probiotics and food that contain it do not need refridgeration.

I don't know if it will be the 'cure' for gas as you're asking but certainly I have seen numerous cases of gut problems improved with just a few days worth of B licheniformis!

For me, I was able to tolerate gluten and dairy after two SBOs C butyricum and B licheniformis. Not bad, eh? Power is in the pudding. I would love to hear your results and progress later.

We didn't add this link to the post -- which is my oversight. Sorry. Lists the foods that naturally contain fermented B licheniformis. Tim naturally gets a boatload from the chicken coop! He doesn't need to worry...

If you've had antibiotics, I suspect you've wipe this niche out.

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.jp/2013/09/korean-pepper-paste-burns-visceral-body.html





Anonymous said...

Tim/Grace, I put my aunt on the PS regimen. She has severe iron-deficiency anemia and has some kind of long-standing IBS (alternating diarrhea and constipation), along with PCOS.

It's been 2 weeks and she's only doing 2 tbsp but she's complaining about gas and indigestion. Any caution do you see for someone who might be iron deficient and on iron supplements and is PCOS? Thanks. Namby

Dr. B G said...

Namby,

If the symptoms of gas and indigestion are moderate to severe for someone adding any fiber -- metamucil, inulin, or RS, then it is likely prudent to consider that that dose is probably too much. The colonies have to shift and it can be definitely done more gently and and with ease.

Does that help? Her gut sounds pretty f*kcered. PCOS is a candida condition and involves microbial translocation to ovarian tissue. Gut or vaginal mucosa can be breached by permeability.

Constipation IBS is dominated by methanogenic species. Lots of GAS! And in all the wrong places-- small intestines instead of large intestines. Is she gluten-free and dairy-free? Probiotics?

I wish her improved gut health soon!

Anonymous said...

Thanks Dr. BG. Yes, definitely everyone's tolerance for gas is different. She has Sjogren's and Sjogren's renal tubular disease, so she has many issues. I'm gonna have her start slowly with maybe a teaspoon everyday until gas subsides. Btw, do you normally store your protiobics in the fridge? I usually don't but it's a bit overheated in my apartment and I put them in the fridge for safekeeping. Primal Defense and ORAC seem to harden a little bit. That should be still good, right?

You were right about reversing autoimmune issues, Dr. BG. That seems to have happened with me with Sjogren's. People don't realize the magnitude of this finding. Seriously, you can cure leaky gut + gut dysbiosis with probiotics and RS, thereby reversing autoimmunity. I'm talking about being antibody-free. Isn't that supposed to be impossible? Worthy of a write up in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Namby

Dr. B G said...

Namby,

So your aunt has at least 2 autoimmune conditions:Sjogrens and PCOS. Personally I feel that C-IBS is another autoimmune disorder, but we just haven't figured out the consortium of auto-antibodies produced (is it against the MMC? the smooth muscle for peristalsis?).

So you saw Anonymous's remarkable reversal of both Sjogren's (SSB-LA) and Chromatin (lupus) autoantibodies to negative and reduction in ANA+ titers, IN ONLY 3 WEEKS?

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_18.html?showComment=1387317470631#c7104879112965817396

I'm not the only one! Thx for your kind words though. For me, Robb Wolf is the one that really began this bad-health reversal trend and revolution with his vocal introduction of the paleo diet!

WIth you and others, however, I believe we can MOVE MOUNTAINS and ameliorate as many root causes as we can. I certainly cannot do it alone, but with you and others, my big hope and dream is that we can enjoy harmony again between the heavens, soil and humans... Is that fantasizing too large??

So your signs of Sjogrens are 100% in remission? Did Sjogrens appear after children or after hypothyroidism/adrenal dysregulation?

No dry mouth or eyes? Did you ck antibodies pre- and post- interventions? What can you share with me for our NEJM publication/letter? LOL. Namby -- you dream so BIGGGGG.

The wonderful thing about spore-based soil based organisms is that no refridgeration is required. I talked to the co-CEOs my buddies at Prescript Assist and they have experimental conditions where Prescript Assist has been kept at 100F (i recall) and despite one year duration, there was something crazy like 98% viability still.

ORAC powder is usually room temp storage unless you live somewhere moist or hot or both.

Phobos said...

I have been following the RS discussion over at FTA from the beginning and have attempted to use PS a few different times, but have been turned off due to bloat in the lower abdominal region. The bloat was not immediate. It seemed to show up after several days on PS, and then it would take several days to subside after stopping PS usage. Then I made my way over here and have been following several of the steps on the SIBO posts including clay usage, SBO (primal defense), fermented foods, psyllium husk, etc. The combination seems to be working in many respects.

I have some GI history, especially as a child, but something that really struck a chord with me was Tim’s experience with Cipro. Mine was not as extreme as his, but I have been on cipro twice for campylobacter, so I felt it might be necessary to repopulate the potentially empty cages prior to feeding. I must say the combination has been extraordinary. Digestion has been much better and of course sleep, but the clarity of mind that I have now is something that I have been searching for for so long.

I had noticed over the years that my ability to solve problems was not near what it used to be and always tried to track back in time to when things might have started to change with no real success because it seemed like the change was too gradual to pin on a certain event. Now, I believe the event may have been the first course of cipro in 2001! At that point I was at the top of my game. I was an undergrad student taking many mathematics, physics, and chemistry courses with no problem. Two years later I was accepted to multiple graduate schools, but I had noticed that I was not as sharp as I had been. I managed to plow through and get a masters, but it was a fight. Since then I have been playing around with diet, exercise, and rest attempting to keep myself healthy and regain that mental edge. Nothing I tried (every kind of paleo) gave me the mental edge I once had, till now. Over the last couple of days I have had moments of clarity that take me back to those days. I am so thankful for Grace and Tim and all of the work they have done. What an amazing find!

Now to my question. My wife has IBS, psoriasis, and she suffers from occasional migraines. I just read a comment over at FTA from someone that had his psoriasis flare after starting PS. He said he had not seen a flare like that for 30 years. My wife has been on humira and enbrel and I would love to help her get off those meds, but I’m apprehensive to suggest the PS protocol due to the other commenter’s issues. He states that he is not the only psoriasis sufferer who has had a flare after using PS.

Grace/Tim, do you have any thoughts on the use of PS for those who suffer from psoriasis? Would the use of SBO’s be alright SINCE she suffers from psoriasis or should they be avoided because she is compromised? I just have a feeling her cages are empty from LOTS of meds over the years. I appreciate insights you might have.

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Ann said...

I have a question for those doing both RS (plantain flour) and SBOs. I have been doing RS with plantain flour for about three weeks. So far no letup on the gas, but the gas from the RS is usually lower, colon mostly, I think. Just the plantain flour by itself has never given me painful gas, or the kind that makes me feel sick. I started Primal Defense Ultra a week ago, and was feeling good and noticing better digestion, especially of fats, and my unmentionables have gone from floaters to sinkers within the week. This really suggests to me that something is improving my fat digestion.

Both yesterday and today, however, I have begun to have really painful gas in my stomach and small intestine area (middle of gut, just above my belly button) building to a feeling that my stomach is going to have to explode to relieve the pain within about two hours after eating. I haven't eaten anything out of normal for me either day, and I don't remember EVER having stomach gas this bad before in my life. Since the gas was lower and different with the RS, I can only wonder if this is caused by the Primal Defense.

Has anyone else here experienced horrible gas and bloating that commenced after beginning the SBOs? Did it pass, or did you have to stop taking them? I don't want to have to stop taking them, but if this doesn't pass it won't be something that will be worth it for me to live with to improve my gut flora. That would seem like a bargain not worth the price.

I took some charcoal in water about a half hour ago, and seem to be feeling some relief, so I'm thinking it's definitely gas of some sort.

Matt said...

Ann
Earlier in December I began the RS protocol from FTA and thought I was going to burst from the pain. I obviously didn't easy into it, downing 4 TBS.

After that, I have been taking Prescript Assist for the past 1.5 months without the any problems. I thought my SIBO was cured!


I then started to implement the Bionic RS w/ SBO and immediately found my SIBO was still around since I was experiencing bloating and pain in my lower/middle abdominal. Not to mention a complete Fibromyalgia Fiesta in my body. This was with only using small dosage of 1/4 TSP.

I then tried using activated charcoal to soak up the gases, and it actually worked.

I've incorporated RS with my meals by mixing it in my water. I've found to have less bloat and less pain in the gut.

Ann said...

Matt - I'm wondering if just the opposite is true for me. I seem to have MORE gas and bloating higher up (small intestine) when I do the RS with food. Not sure what that means.

Overall I'm feeling a lot better, but experiencing different stomach issues now. An hour or two after eating anything, I just feel so bloated in my stomach - to the point that it's hard to breathe sometimes, and I feel almost like heartburn or acid, but not quite. I'm starting to wonder if I should still be supplementing with enzymes containing betaine. I took my enzymes after lunch today, and just don't feel right. Just took some calc. carbonate antacids, and feel a little better I think. Maybe the Primal Defense and RS have improved my stomach acid? Don't know, but food seems to still be in my stomach for a long time.

Sarah Thompson said...

This is great info! Definitely seems to be an important 'missing link' in our efforts to treat my significant other's Crohn's.

He has been on the GAPS diet (not as strictly as Dr. Natasha would recommend) with a lot of symptom improvement, but seems to have hit a plateau. He still has cycles of flares, they are just milder and he has somewhat better bowel functioning ( he struggles with constipation and has a BM a few times a week now, typically)

The big hurdle that I really really want to get past: he still takes weekly Hummer shots.

From this post, I understand he likely should not begin doing SBOs while on an immune-suppresant.

But, he may not be able to benefit from RS or anything until he does that because I am SURE he has got some major dysbiosis (he's had Crohn's and eaten whatever for at least a decade).

But, he doesn't want to stop Humira until he is at a point when he won't flare badly when he does!

So, what to do?

I would love to find doctor who is on board with all this, who could walk us through a process of going off of Humira. The naturopath we were going to didn't seem knowledgable enough to me. Didn't tell me anything I didn't know and didn't know some things I do, like some of the info here.

Any suggestions of any kind GREATLY appreciated.

Thank you for all of your work,

Sarah

Kim said...

Tim mentioned that people who are severely immune compromised shouldn't take SBO's. What about if you have an autoimmune condition like Hashi's? Is that considered 'immune compromised'? Looking forward to trying this SIBO protocol to heal the gut. Thanks :)

Natalya said...

Hi Grace,
I started PS in Jan, after 18 months on the GAPS diet, LC. Started other forms of RS a week or so later. Then psyllium. Intermittent diarrhea cleared w 6 TBS PS. Now at 4. Taking GutPro, was taking Body Biotics, now Prescript Assist. But the AOR 3 sends my Windage through the roof! A third of a cap is too much, we are talking uncontrollable:)Gas collects around cecum too, and exits at will (not my will!). I'm thinking to continue, but real slow, any ideas? Loving all the RS. Thanks.

Natalya said...

Sorry Tater, meant to address you too, of course. Happy for any comments about difficulty w AOR 3. I'm thinking it will be really beneficial, thus the struggle!

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Webraven said...

Hi all! I would appreciate your experiences/comments/advice. I am working on correcting long-standing dysbiosis using soil based organisms and potato starch. I am experiencing a gradual and somewhat significant worsening of my pre-existing symptoms (bloating the big C, systemic inflammation, fluid retention, low mood (low serotonin?)) If it is the case that the potato starch feeds both "good" and "bad" bacteria, it does make sense that initially my symptoms would worsen as the predominating "bad " bacteria proliferate as well. If, as I've read, the potato starch predominantly feeds the "good "bacteria I would over the course of time see the levels of those bacteria increase, along with a decrease of my symptoms. I assume I could also be experiencing some degree if die-off of whatever micro-organism the SBOs are killing.

So there is my theory. Has anyone else with a significant degree of gut dysbiosis experienced something similar and/or improved their gut using soil based organisms and potato starch? How quickly were you able to proceed and heal?

Grateful for any insight!